Universal Health Care... what would this mean...

scottlgarrett · Feb 3, 2008

Well, I accidentally hit the "thanks" button, instead of the "quote" button. You can be sure I did not mean to thank you for this post. I meant to ask you how sick people made bad choices. Sure, some have. Some people don't eat right, or some people smoke and do drugs, or drink. But, exactly what bad choice did my mother make when she got breast cancer and her insurance premiums went up to over $1,000.00 per month? (Which happens to be more than 50% of her income.)
What bad choice did my sister-in-law make when she was diagnosed with diabetes and now she can't buy insurance at any price. (She used to have it through her employer. Now, she has a different job and with a small business owner who tried to purchase insurance for her, but was refused because of her diabetes.) What bad choice did the working class parents of a child with leukemia make? I suppose it was that they settled for jobs without health insurance. What bad choice did the factory worker make, who had health insurance before they shipped his job overseas and what bad choice are you going to make when some day, for one reason, or another, beyond your control you need more insurance than you've got, or you've been canceled because of some strange, but all too common, diagnosis?
I will be asking the moderator if there is any way to remove the accidental thanks I gave you. I hope there is. I really do. In the meantime, I'd like to see your data for all the Canadians and Englishmen who have been breaking down our borders for healthcare. You might also look at how many Americans buy their prescription drugs in Canada because they can't afford them here.

WOW!!! I was not even trying to evoke that sort of response from anyone.

Let me try to clarify a couple of things.

First the bad choices I was thinking of are when people got themselves into the Sub-Prime loans, I was not thinking of eating disorders, or smoking. Also not thinking of Breast CA. My whole point is that the government should not be our mother.

Second as for my remark about the VA healthcare system, I am speaking of the Beaurocracy that begins in Washington D.C. and filters its way down. The medical professionals at the VA do a great job with what they have.

Third as far as you wanting your "THANK YOU" back; I did not ask for it, nor do I need it. I simply made my opinion known, and I did my best to try not to offend anyone. There is no reason to attack someone who has a different opinion than yours. That is one of the biggest problems with people these days, they don't think of anyone but themselves, and all they can do is attack others.

Lastly I am sorry for your Mom, and your Sister, I truely hope that their circumstances and foutunes turn for the better, and THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR POSTING A REPLY, I CAN SEE YOU PUT A LOT OF THOUGHT INTO IT.

icyounurse, BSN, RN · Feb 3, 2008

Wow, I can't believe someone actually posted that people from Canada and England seek healthcare in the U.S.......

excuse me while I die laughing---hahahahahah:w00t:https://allnurses.com/forums/images/smilies/added/w00t.gif

:w00t:

puh-lease people. Our health care system is not among the top of industrialized nations by any means. Do some research. And seriously if I was in Canada and I could just go to the doctor when I was sick, why in the world would I cross the border so i could pay tons of $$$$ for the same care I would receive for free back home???Actually statistically their care in Canada is somewhat better. Their infant mortality rate is lower than ours and their life expectancy is longer(gasp)

And no, their nurses salaries are not lower than ours. Check out their statistics here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_and_American_health_care_systems_compared

If you look under Health care outcomes you will see Canadians live 2 and 1/2 years longer than us. Why do Americans get so arrogant defending our horrible healthcare system when we need to be getting together and trying to change it?

Miss Chybil RN, BSN, RN · Feb 3, 2008

There is no reason to attack someone who has a different opinion than yours. That is one of the biggest problems with people these days, they don't think of anyone but themselves, and all they can do is attack others.

As in attacking people who need healthcare, but who don't have insurance because they've made bad choices?

It is my opinion the biggest problem with people these days is there are so many people who know what the biggest problem with people these days is. Of course, that's just my opinion. Were I want to prove my argument, I'd have to substantiate it with facts and perhaps acknowledge I'd just shot myself in the back by making such a generalized statement. Generalizations have a tendency to do that.

icyounurse, BSN, RN · Feb 3, 2008

As in attacking people who need healthcare, but who don't have insurance because they've made bad choices?
It is my opinion the biggest problem with people these days is there are so many people who know what the biggest problem with people these days is. Of course, that's just my opinion. Were I want to prove my argument, I'd have to substantiate it with facts and perhaps acknowledge I'd just shot myself in the back by making such a generalized statement. Generalizations have a tendency to do that.

Amen sister. And actually not everyone who is uninsured is so because they have "made bad choices". Me and my husband recently moved and are starting new jobs and it takes 30 days to get the insurance. If you are in an accident or get cancer or something in the meantime? Oh well. I think the whole system has some major flaws personally.

scottlgarrett · Feb 3, 2008

As in attacking people who need healthcare, but who don't have insurance because they've made bad choices?
It is my opinion the biggest problem with people these days is there are so many people who know what the biggest problem with people these days is. Of course, that's just my opinion. Were I want to prove my argument, I'd have to substantiate it with facts and perhaps acknowledge I'd just shot myself in the back by making such a generalized statement. Generalizations have a tendency to do that.

I am so SORRY, I will go into my room and shoot myself because you think my I am such a bad guy.

Maby.....

Enjoy your SHREEKING

Okami_CCRN, BSN, RN · Feb 3, 2008

Health Care in my opinion is a right everyone should have. Yes some of us are privledge to have medical insurance but it is time the government intervined.

Drug prices are rising everyday, health care is becoming ridiculously expensive and more and more people are participating in "social tourism."

It is evident that our healthcare system is flawed yet we continually deny care to those who need it. Universal health Care would offer everyone the chance to see a doctor on a regular basis. The point of universal health care is to practice preventative medicine thus elimanting the burden on hospitals.

I live in NJ and recently all we hear is "hospitals in Newark to close by summer" and "Overlook Hospital has purchased Union Hospital". Hospitals would not close because they cannot make money because insentatives would be set in place.

We must look to France and England to establish a system that works for each and every american. It is our right as citizens of the free world to have a system where everyone can benefit from.

HM2VikingRN, RN · Feb 3, 2008

i have posted numerous threads and links to how we can do much better under a universal health care model. here is a link to one article....

france
it's a common lament among health-policy wonks that the world's best health-care system resides in a country americans are particularly loath to learn from. yet france's system is hard to beat. where canada's system has a high floor and a low ceiling, france's has a high floor and no ceiling. the government provides basic insurance for all citizens, albeit with relatively robust co-pays, and then encourages the population to also purchase supplementary insurance -- which 86 percent do, most of them through employers, with the poor being subsidized by the state. this allows for as high a level of care as an individual is willing to pay for, and may help explain why waiting lines are nearly unknown in france.
france's system is further prized for its high level of choice and responsiveness -- attributes that led the world health organization to rank it the finest in the world (america's system came in at no. 37, between costa rica and slovenia). the french can see any doctor or specialist they want, at any time they want, as many times as they want, no referrals or permissions needed. the french hospital system is similarly open. about 65 percent of the nation's hospital beds are public, but individuals can seek care at any hospital they want, public or private, and receive the same reimbursement rate no matter its status. given all this, the french utilize more care than americans do, averaging six physician visits a year to our 2.8, and they spend more time in the hospital as well. yet they still manage to spend half per capita than we do, largely due to lower prices and a focus on preventive care.
...
the french have addressed this by creating what amounts to a tiered system for treatment reimbursement. as jonathan cohn explains in his new book, sick:
in order to prevent cost sharing from penalizing people with serious medical problems -- the way health savings accounts threaten to do -- the [french] government limits every individual's out-of-pocket expenses. in addition, the government has identified thirty chronic conditions, such as diabetes and hypertension, for which there is usually no cost sharing, in order to make sure people don't skimp on preventive care that might head off future complications.
the french do the same for pharmaceuticals, which are grouped into one of three classes and reimbursed at 35 percent, 65 percent, or 100 percent of cost, depending on whether data show their use to be cost effective. it's a wise straddle of a tricky problem, and one that other nations would do well to emulate.
...
indeed, the vha's lead in care quality isn't disputed. a new england journal of medicine study from 2003 compared the vha with fee-for-service medicare on 11 measures of quality. the vha came out "significantly better" on every single one. the annals of internal medicine pitted the vha against an array of managed-care systems to see which offered the best treatment for diabetics. the vha triumphed in all seven of the tested metrics. the national committee for quality assurance, meanwhile, ranks health plans on 17 different care metrics, from hypertension treatment to adherence to evidence-based treatments. as phillip longman, the author of best care anywhere, a book chronicling the vha's remarkable transformation, explains: "winning ncqa's seal of approval is the gold standard in the health-care industry. and who do you suppose is the highest ranking health care system? johns hopkins? mayo clinic? massachusetts general? nope. in every single category, the veterans health care system outperforms the highest-rated non-vha hospitals."
what makes this such an explosive story is that the vha is a truly socialized medical system. the unquestioned leader in american health care is a government agency that employs 198,000 federal workers from five different unions, and nonetheless maintains short wait times and high consumer satisfaction. eighty-three percent of vha hospital patients say they are satisfied with their care, 69 percent report being seen within 20 minutes of scheduled appointments, and 93 percent see a specialist within 30 days.

http://prospect.org/cs/articles?article=the_health_of_nations

i think we will do much better with a well designed universal system.

HM2VikingRN, RN · Feb 3, 2008

see:

what’s wrong with giving people a choice?

there are very good reasons to believe that a national centralized system
can provide pension and health insurance coverage more effectively and at
lower cost than existing private financial firms or health insurance providers.
but it is not necessary to speculate as to which system will provide better
service. if the public sector option is made available, the decision can be left to
the market. businesses and individuals would be free to choose the system that
they felt best met their needs, at the lowest cost.
if the nanny state conservatives believe what they say, they should not be
concerned about the risk that public sector pension and health insurance
systems will pose to private plans. in fact, the prospect of competing against the
government arouses great fear among nanny state conservatives. this was one
reason the republican congress explicitly prohibited the medicare system from
offering its own prescription drug benefit in the 2003 law establishing a
medicare drug benefit.
...
in this situation, the nanny state conservatives are strongly opposed to
giving people a choice. they want the nanny state to ensure hefty profits for the
financial industry, the health insurance industry, and internet service providers
even if means higher prices, poorer service, and a less efficient economy.

at:

http://www.conservativenannystate.org/cnswebbook.pdf

fronkey bean · Feb 3, 2008

Well, I accidentally hit the "thanks" button, instead of the "quote" button. You can be sure I did not mean to thank you for this post. I meant to ask you how sick people made bad choices. Sure, some have. Some people don't eat right, or some people smoke and do drugs, or drink. But, exactly what bad choice did my mother make when she got breast cancer and her insurance premiums went up to over $1,000.00 per month? (Which happens to be more than 50% of her income.)
What bad choice did my sister-in-law make when she was diagnosed with diabetes and now she can't buy insurance at any price. (She used to have it through her employer. Now, she has a different job and with a small business owner who tried to purchase insurance for her, but was refused because of her diabetes.) What bad choice did the working class parents of a child with leukemia make? I suppose it was that they settled for jobs without health insurance. What bad choice did the factory worker make, who had health insurance before they shipped his job overseas and what bad choice are you going to make when some day, for one reason, or another, beyond your control you need more insurance than you've got, or you've been canceled because of some strange, but all too common, diagnosis?
I will be asking the moderator if there is any way to remove the accidental thanks I gave you. I hope there is. I really do. In the meantime, I'd like to see your data for all the Canadians and Englishmen who have been breaking down our borders for healthcare. You might also look at how many Americans buy their prescription drugs in Canada because they can't afford them here.

One of the reasons insurance premiums are so high for everyone is the huge payouts insurance co.s have to pay for people whose lifestyle - smoking, overeating, lack of exercise, high risk sports, excessive alcohol, etc - have led to chronic and expensive illnesses. When insurance co.s have to spend a lot of money on these kinds of cases then they pass the cost on to all consumers including, unfortunately, your mom.

Wow, I can't believe someone actually posted that people from Canada and England seek healthcare in the U.S.......
excuse me while I die laughing---hahahahahah:w00t:https://allnurses.com/forums/images/smilies/added/w00t.gif
:w00t:
puh-lease people. Our health care system is not among the top of industrialized nations by any means. Do some research. And seriously if I was in Canada and I could just go to the doctor when I was sick, why in the world would I cross the border so i could pay tons of $$$$ for the same care I would receive for free back home???Actually statistically their care in Canada is somewhat better. Their infant mortality rate is lower than ours and their life expectancy is longer(gasp)
And no, their nurses salaries are not lower than ours. Check out their statistics here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_and_American_health_care_systems_compared
If you look under Health care outcomes you will see Canadians live 2 and 1/2 years longer than us. Why do Americans get so arrogant defending our horrible healthcare system when we need to be getting together and trying to change it?

They come here to avoid the waits it sometimes takes to get routine tests done there, at least the rich do. The poor get stuck in line waiting, kind of like they do here.

Your statistics are alittle misleading. While Canadians do live a little longer than Americans, if you check out the WHO wbsite (sorry I'm computer illiterate and don't know how to put it in my post) you'll find that many more Americans die young due to violence which somewhat skews the stats.

Amen sister. And actually not everyone who is uninsured is so because they have "made bad choices". Me and my husband recently moved and are starting new jobs and it takes 30 days to get the insurance. If you are in an accident or get cancer or something in the meantime? Oh well. I think the whole system has some major flaws personally.

While I am generally in favor of out current sytem, this is one thing that certainly needs fixing. I would like to see one candidate on either side propose someway for people in transition (either changeing jobs, going to school or searching for a new job after being downsized) to keep their insurance at their current rate until they are once again covered under a new policy. No one can afford COBRA payments. Also, there should be a better system for those w/ jobs that have no or poor insurance to affordably supplement their insurance.

HM2VikingRN, RN · Feb 3, 2008

look at the va healthcare system, or medicare,
both are basically "universal healthcare" and the care that the patients get is often
sub-standare by normal consumer standards.

this is an assertion not supported by evidence:

over the last decade or two, the vha system has become a worldwide leader in both the adoption and the invention of health-information technology, and it has leveraged its innovations into quantifiable gains in quality of care. as harvard's kennedy school noted when awarding the vha its prestigious innovations in american government prize:
[the] vha's complete adoption of electronic health records and performance measures have resulted in high-quality, low-cost health care with high patient satisfaction. a recent rand study found that vha outperforms all other sectors of american health care across the spectrum of 294 measures of quality in disease prevention and treatment. for six straight years, vha has led private-sector health care in the independent american customer satisfaction index.
indeed, the vha's lead in care quality isn't disputed. a new england journal of medicine study from 2003 compared the vha with fee-for-service medicare on 11 measures of quality. the vha came out "significantly better" on every single one. the annals of internal medicine pitted the vha against an array of managed-care systems to see which offered the best treatment for diabetics. the vha triumphed in all seven of the tested metrics. the national committee for quality assurance, meanwhile, ranks health plans on 17 different care metrics, from hypertension treatment to adherence to evidence-based treatments. as phillip longman, the author of best care anywhere, a book chronicling the vha's remarkable transformation, explains: "winning ncqa's seal of approval is the gold standard in the health-care industry. and who do you suppose is the highest ranking health care system? johns hopkins? mayo clinic? massachusetts general? nope. in every single category, the veterans health care system outperforms the highest-rated non-vha hospitals."

http://prospect.org/cs/articles?article=the_health_of_nations

jojotoo, RN · Feb 3, 2008

Scottlgarrett - my "thanks" was on purpose. I am opposed to government run Universal Health Care. Unfortunately, no matter what the system, there will always be a few that fall through the gaps.

To Miss Chybil - regarding your sister-in-law that changed jobs and now can't get coverage because of her diabetes. Now she has a pre-existing condition. I thought that was what HIPAA was for. Go to www.dol.gov and select Health Plans and Benefits for additional info.

And for the uninsured parents of a child with leukemia - we already have government programs in place for catastrophic illnesses.

Factory workers whose jobs are shipped overseas? Then they are going to have to get another job - no matter what. They'll still have to feed, house, clothe themselves. I don't think that it is unreasonable that they also take care of their own healthcare.

And for your mom, I'm sincerely sorry for the burden that this must be for her. Her healthcare insurance is now $1000 per month? At this time she is not one of the charities that I choose to contribute to. I think that her family and those that volunteer to do so should be assisting paying that bill. Please do not force me to. I have enough responsibilities with my own family. And I am not asking that others help me with those responsibilities. And if it ever gets to the point that I need help, then I will ask it of my family, my friends, my church, or volunteer organizations. I will not attempt to force strangers to assist me.

To Icyounurse: Congratulations on your relocation. I hope that you will be happy and profitable in your new home. In the meantime, please do not ask me to pay your health insurance - that's what Cobra is for. Cobra is too expensive? Mmm, then maybe a second job is in order - just like I have to have to pay my bills.

The following statement is not directed towards anyone on this board - it's just a general statement to the world: Please! Stop asking for my money. It's MY money. I worked for it. I earned it. I'll decide what I want to do with it and who I want to give it to. If YOU want money, then you must work (and work hard), just like I have to.

I'm probably a little extra annoyed about this subject right now, because I just did my taxes. And before I was done, I was vomiting and having palpatations. I love this country. I'm proud to live here and I'm grateful to live here. But what I have to pay in taxes - federal, state, personal property, etc. is OBSCENE! :angryfire :angryfire :angryfire

jojotoo, RN · Feb 3, 2008

Health Care in my opinion is a right everyone should have.
It is our right as citizens of the free world to have a system where everyone can benefit from.

As far as I'm concerned, it is your "right" to stay in school and get an education, not to be a drop-out, not to get pregnant, not to become a substance abuser (of any kind) and then GET A JOB and pay for whatever you want - healthcare, fancy cars, trips to Vegas, steak and caviar every night for dinner - whatever you choose, with the money you have earned.

I'm also not opposed to you spending inherited money or lottery winnings as you see fit.