unionized vs nonunionized

fergus51 · Sep 14, 2003

I prefer unionized, but have to say a union is only as effective as its ACTIVE members make it. In my experience, the people who complain the most about the union are the last ones willing to do anything about it.

The benefits of a union include a set contract equal among all RNs, seniority carrying some weight (as far as salary, vacation time, etc), a set conflict resolution process, good benefits, an advocate in times of trouble, and basically a check to management's power. I don't think all managers are crazy or anything, but I have seen some that cause a lot of damage when there was no union to oppose them. One hospital here decided to cut almost all its senior staff in the 90s to save money and those fired couldn't do anything about it...

Cons: you may be able to negotiate better for yourself, seniority isn't great if you don't have any, some say unions protect bad nurses... As far as seniority, I have never worked somewhere that promoted people solely on seniority, it was just one factor. As far as protecting bad or lazy nurses, even in a union you can be fired with cause. If a manager chooses not to, then it's her fault.

I certainly don't think it makes us be seen as less than professional. Collective bargaining is used by docs all the time, and if I have a good contract and a good union, I could care less how I am perceived. Plus, a lot of unionized blue collar workers make a lot more money than RNs! I wouldn't mind being seen as a blue collar worker if it gets me the same:)

Win98 · Sep 23, 2003

Originally posted by fergus51
I certainly don't think it makes us be seen as less than professional. Collective bargaining is used by docs all the time, and if I have a good contract and a good union, I could care less how I am perceived.

I think that unions make nurses BE less professional. Seniority is defined as length of time in one workplace, and does not recognize length of time in the profession or experience gained in other places. Union contracts reward people for staying in one place (stagnating) - seniority is the main factor in amount of vacation time, internal transfers, and other issues. The nurses with the most seniority feel they have 'earned' the right to first choice at everything, simply because they have been there the longest. In my experience, many of these nurses do not make any efforts to improve or educate themselves, as they don't see it as necessary.

I accept that contracts are necessary to set out pay scales and various other issues, but I have a real problem with how seniority is used. I have worked for over thirty years, and gained experience in other hospitals, and each time I move I am placed at the bottom of the seniority heap, with minimal vacation time, vacation not granted in the summer, worst time off at Christmas, and first to get floated to another unit or last in line to get last minute time off if we are overstaffed. I have "put in my dues" just like the 'senior' nurses - the only difference is that I have chosen to broaden my experience and knowledge and not to stagnate in one place for my entire career.

sjoe · Sep 23, 2003

"If I am a rational, thinking, educated individual, I am capable of representing myself and advocating for myself in my position."

You are assuming that all your future employers themselves would be rational, fair-minded, interested in their employees and/or patients, etc. and willing to treat employees as valuable individuals and professionals.

WRONG! Read more of the threads on this BB to get a clearer picture of what happens in the real world.

fergus51 · Sep 23, 2003

Win, that isn't the case where I am. Experience in other places is recognized, both when looking at pay and benefits. Vacation time is also not permitted to be monopolized by senior nurses through our system (no one is allowed more than 2 weeks off during the summer and peak season). The union also keeps managers paying for continuing education to encourage professional development.

llg, PhD, RN · Sep 23, 2003

To TraceyS:

I think you are right to be unsure about unions and thinking of these questions as issues to be explored rather than straightforward, "yes or no" questions.

I, too, have mixed feelings about unions -- and I have worked in a hospital that had an active union and several that have had none. Yes, the pay and benefit was best at the unionized hospital. However, the relationship between management and staff was the absolute worst there.

It seemed to me that the process of the unionized contract negotiation process set up a "us versus them" culture that pervaded the institution. You see evidence of that antagonistic culture on this bulletin board all the time. I think that attitude is very bad for nursing and I don't want to work in a place like that ever again.

Now ... does that terrible "us versus them" culture exist at all unionized hospitals? I hope not. I like to think that it is possible to have collective bargaining and unionization without nurturing the devlopment of those kinds of feelings. However, I think it is an inherent danger in all unionized institutions. That makes me hesitant to jump on the union bandwagon -- but I understand that in some places, the culture is already so bad that a union is necessary to protect the nurse from abuse.

I guess that means I view unions as a sometimes (but not always) necessary evil. Given a choice, I would prefer working for a hospital with a possitive culture and an enlightened mangagement that does not abuse its staff. In such a place, a union is not necessary and I would prefer to not have one in order to avoid the danger mentioned above. However, if I worked in an abusive setting, I would support the joining of a union.

llg

redshiloh · Sep 23, 2003

It's funny..we were talking about unions right before i turned on the computer and came here.

Unions in the south are not always welcome..there is that kind of culture. When I was nurse manager the unions drove me crazy with complaints. BUT unions have a good purpose and while i don't always agree with them, i think they are a good thing.

Don't join...at least not right away, learn about them first.

lindarn · Sep 23, 2003

Nurses who are unionized have higher pay, better benefits, and more control over their workplace and working conditions.

Tracey S is in la la land if she thinks that she will be able to "negotiate " better pay, etc. with an employer.

As to using education as a way of negotiating better wages, I have my BSN and attend the NTI yearly for contuining education. BSN's have been denied pay increase by lower educated RN's (ADN and diploma grads) because they feel slighted by their own lack of education They unfortunately outnumber the BSN's in the workplace and BSN's are at the losing end. Is it any wonder that many of them leave bedside nursing for other workplace environments where a college degree is rewarded and appreciated?

Besides, hospitals don't want nurses to have BSN's. Nursing will then go the way of Physical Therapy, Occupational Therapy, Social Workers, etc, who have a unified educational entrance requirements and enjoy much higher wages, perks, and respect than nurses. Hospitals would rather see us in a self- directed "divide and conquer" mode. Unfortunately, nurses just don't get it and believe the hospital's BS, hook, line and sinker.

Also, just this week, medical residents in California voted to unionize to improve their pay and working conditions. Teachers have been unionized for years and have much better pay, beneifts and workplace conditions than nurses have. I never hear any flak about teachers and doctors not being professional because they are unionized.

A few years ago, here in Spokane, a military family moved into a school district late and there was no room in their child's classroom for another student. The classroom number was below the maximum allowed in their union contract, but two of the children in the class had ADHD. Because the children with ADHD require more interventions and have more needs than other children (does that sound familiar?), the teachers are allowed to count EACH child with ADHD AS TWO, instead of ONE. This lowers the classroom size and teacher- student ratio. It is a non- negotiabe item to teachers. They are fully supported by the teachers' union and state and national organization. Teachers decide how large, busy, and manageable their classrooms are. Imagine that!

The American Federation of Teachers also organizes nurses, and from what I have seen they do an awesome job. They are always publishing information concerning nursing and health care and keeping their members informed. Compare that to the nursing organizations here in Washington.

Teachers have that type of worplace protection because of the teachers union. That new child ending up going to a private school in the neighborhood because her parents didn't want the child bussed off to another school in another district, where they had more room.

As always, a union is only as strong as its members!

Also, teachers who teach in the same school, same grade, and have the same number and mix of students receive higher pay for having a master's degree than a teacher who doesn't have a graduate degree. So much for the ADN's and diploma grads who resent BSN's and continually vote down and whine when BSN's ask for more money. Their excuse is that we all do the same job so we all should get paid the same as the do. Amazing how teachers don't look at it that way.

You live in NYS which is represented by the NYSNA. They are one of the most powerful nursing unions in the country, second only to the Californai State Nursing Association. They also have mandatory medical insurance for all thier members and families, paid for by the employer. It is a non- negotioable item at contract time. Do you think really that you can bargain for that by yourself? You must have delusions of grandeur. I would go for a hospital who is represented by NYSNA.

Linda, RN, BSN, CCRN, LNC

chellet98 · Sep 23, 2003

Wow, this is quite a subject....one that I am interested in ever since I moved back home to the south and realized the word UNION is the same as dropping an "F" bomb!!! :eek: I inquired about a union when I joined a hospital team and realized the nurses were being dumped on and not speaking up for themselves. Well let's just say I cleared the breakroom and found myself in the managers office within the next 2 hours! Oops:confused: I had know idea that "we" were so opposed to the idea down here, yet we were willing to take every unsafe patient load and 2% raise the hospital throws our way. I have never been a part of a union (and probably won't be if I stay down south) but I am not opposed to anything or anyone who can speak for and with the nurses out there!

Geeg · Sep 28, 2003

Unions enable nurses to have a contract. Nonunionized hospitals have employees sign a paper they say is a "contract" but in actuality the nurse is an employee "at will" meaning they can be dismissed at any time for any reason.

maxy2006 · Sep 29, 2003

Hi...I am sort of new here...I have been reading some of the threads and I find this subject quite interesting. I am currently a nursing student in a BSN program (with a minor in ethics) and I have to lead a lecture in my bioethics class on a controversial subject. I think this thread has presented a jackpot for me!!! (I also have to do a presentation for history and my thought is to present the history of unionization (nursing or otherwise). May as well kill two birds with one stone (student, employee, mom of three!). I need to become an expert on the pros/cons/issues surrounding nursing unions (through interviews, surveys, etc.). I wonder if anyone could volunteer more information regarding where to go, who will speak to me (maybe higher-ups in nursing unions, different facilities that have unions), and any other information that will make me an expert on the subject. Thanks, I'll be waiting to hear!

pickledpepperRN · Sep 30, 2003

You will find a lot on the Nursing Activism and Politics Forum. There have been many lively debates regarding many aspects of union vs non union.

Here are some linkd to mine. I am one of the >50,000 members.

http://www.calnurse.org/

http://cna.igc.org/cna101/

http://cna.igc.org/cna101/california.htm

http://cna.igc.org/cna101/nursingpractice.htm

http://cna.igc.org/cna101/govrel.htm

http://cna.igc.org/cna101/top5-5.htm

http://www.calnurse.org/cna/calnursemayjun03/

http://www.calnurse.org/cna/access.htm