Union

allnurses Guide · Apr 19, 2005

it's all in my previous posts so i'm not going to reapeat myself!
Utilitarianism ROCKS!!!!

"The utilitarians are for merging all the particular virtues into one, and would substitute in their place the greatest usefulness, as the alone principle to which every question respecting the morality of actions should be referred." Chalmers

But who gets to decide the greatest usefulness question?

So we judge morality by utilitarianism?

Yikes. You can't even get people to agree on unions . . . how to agree on what is the "greatest usefulness".

My head is swimming with the repercussions . . . .

steph

mmeow · Apr 19, 2005

i just wanted to make sure i wasn't taking your position out of context or misrepresenting it. if the autonomy of those with whom you disagree matters so little to you, perhaps a caring profession that deals with a broad spectrum of people isn't quite right for you. perhaps a career where you only deal with like-minded individuals would be more appropriate. JMHO

If you want to make personal comments on these threads i suggest you get to know the person first otherwise everything else is heresay.

mmeow · Apr 19, 2005

i just wanted to make sure i wasn't taking your position out of context or misrepresenting it. if the autonomy of those with whom you disagree matters so little to you, perhaps a caring profession that deals with a broad spectrum of people isn't quite right for you. perhaps a career where you only deal with like-minded individuals would be more appropriate. JMHO

Highlighting autonomy could easily be mistaken for selfishness, thread carefully!

mmeow · Apr 19, 2005

"The utilitarians are for merging all the particular virtues into one, and would substitute in their place the greatest usefulness, as the alone principle to which every question respecting the morality of actions should be referred." Chalmers
But who gets to decide the greatest usefulness question?
So we judge morality by utilitarianism?
Yikes. You can't even get people to agree on unions . . . how to agree on what is the "greatest usefulness".
My head is swimming with the repercussions . . . .
steph

Utilitarianism within unions not the world! if you want to get into a philosphical discussion concerning theories and world views e-mail me sometime but lets keep focused here we are discussing unions remember!!!!

Greatist good for the greatist number! Example: most nurses have families ect. in our collective agreement we bargained family leave whereas mothers and fathers could take family days with pay when their depedents were sick and they needed to be home with them instead of using up their sick days with pay. For nurses without children or dependents family leave really doesn't matter but since the majority have famiies the concept of Utilitarianism was utilized and family days were adopted for THE GREATIST NUMBER!

menetopali · Apr 19, 2005

great question stevie.

i myself am more of a Jeffersonian than a Utilatarian,

"Subject opinion to coercion: whom will you make your inquisitors? Fallible men, governed by bad passions, by private as well as public reasons. And why subject it to coercion? To produce uniformity? But is uniformity of opinion desirable? No more than of face and stature." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia

and

"Difference of opinion leads to enquiry, and enquiry to truth; and that, I am sure, is the ultimate and sincere object of us both. We both value too much the freedom of opinion sanctioned by our Constitution, not to cherish its exercise even where in opposition to ourselves." --Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815.

on the question of unions, i will simply say that honest individuals can honestly disagree and leave it at that. i hold that compelling membership into a union is inherently wrong and others differ. i don't begrudge their effort to do what they believe is right, even if i disagree. i only ask that they grant those with whom they disagree the same respect.

mmeow · Apr 19, 2005

great question stevie.
i myself am more of a Jeffersonian than a Utilatarian,
"Subject opinion to coercion: whom will you make your inquisitors? Fallible men, governed by bad passions, by private as well as public reasons. And why subject it to coercion? To produce uniformity? But is uniformity of opinion desirable? No more than of face and stature." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia
and
"Difference of opinion leads to enquiry, and enquiry to truth; and that, I am sure, is the ultimate and sincere object of us both. We both value too much the freedom of opinion sanctioned by our Constitution, not to cherish its exercise even where in opposition to ourselves." --Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815.
on the question of unions, i will simply say that honest individuals can honestly disagree and leave it at that. i hold that compelling membership into a union is inherently wrong and others differ. i don't begrudge their effort to do what they believe is right, even if i disagree. i only ask that they grant those with whom they disagree the same respect.

opinions are like noses....everybodies got one, some are just longer than others hahaha

menetopali · Apr 19, 2005

mmeow,

if you would like a civil discussion, lets have it. you have stated your position, i have stated mine. if you have something to add to the discussion or to your position, add it. but at the very least, try to be civil and adult.

mmeow · Apr 19, 2005

i just wanted to make sure i wasn't taking your position out of context or misrepresenting it. if the autonomy of those with whom you disagree matters so little to you, perhaps a caring profession that deals with a broad spectrum of people isn't quite right for you. perhaps a career where you only deal with like-minded individuals would be more appropriate. JMHO

Define civil and adult? I believe the above post started our little tango.... i was adding humor shall i define that for you?

menetopali · Apr 19, 2005

that was both civil and adult.

i asked you to clarify your posisition. you indicated that you had stated it previosly and would not state it again.

i extrapolated from your oft repeated stance on the notion that being in a union was fundamental to being a nurse that not being in a union, and not wanting to, must imply that you believe i am unfit to be a nurse, or should get out of nursing.

as respect for others is fundamental to nursing, at least where i went to school, i noted that your position was ill suited to nursing, in that your postion (as you stated it) is inconsistent with respect for the beliefs that others hold, and recomended that you seek another career where such conflicts were less likely.

i don't believe i have mis-stated your position, as you described it. i'm sure that i haven't mis-stated mine.

don't tell me (or those with whom you disagree) that they should get out of nursing because they disagree with your position on unions and then act surprised/shocked/offended or the like when i recomend you get out of nursing because of your apparent intolerence of the views of others.

i saw no humor in the pinnochio reference. calling someone dishonest is not funny, it is childish and frankly rude. name calling is the last resort of a failed argument commonly reffered to as an ad hominem attack. i accepted that your position was honestly held even though i disagreed. your attack on my character demonstrates that you apparently believe that my position is dishonest or has been arrived at dishonestly.

again, if you have somthing to add...please add it

bluesky, BSN, RN · Apr 19, 2005

Listen, I don't particularly like what the current administration is doing with my hard earned tax money. YET, a majority of the American people voted for this administration and I am thereby required, coerced, against my will to live with it's policies until the next election. Such is the reality of a union. At some point in that hospital's history, A MAJORITY of nurses voted union yes. If you want to work at that hospital you have to abide by the rules voted on by a majority of those nurses. I don't understand how or why that practice is so offensive to you as it represents the core of how this country works.

bluesky, BSN, RN · Apr 19, 2005

You seemed to miss the last part of my post and, therefore, you're taking it out of context. I wasn't suggesting that unions be able to "extort" money.
I pointed out that RN's vote for whether or not a union represents them. If the majority wants a union, then the union is in. If the majority doesn't want a union, they're out.
CNA has lost elections, as has SEIU and other unions. Obviously, that is not extortion. It's called an election, where the majority prevails.
And RN's who disagree with the majority can choose to leave the facility if they don't want to pay union dues. That's not extortion either.

AMEN!!! You tell it, sister. :bow:

Home Health Columnist / Guide · Apr 19, 2005

some of the nursing unions worldwide:

england:

the main nursing unions in the uk are the rcn (royal college of nursing): http://www.rcn.org.uk, the rcm (royal college of midwives): http://www.rcm.org.uk, and unison: http://www.unison.org.uk

canadian nursing labour unions

british columbia nurses' union (bcnu)

manitoba nurses' union

newfoundland & labrador nurses union

nova scotia nurses' union (nsnu) ontario nurses association

united nurses of alberta

australia:

the australian nursing federation (anf) was established in 1924. the anf is the national union for nurses and the largest professional nursing organisation in australia. the anf's core business is the industrial and professional representation of nurses and nursing through the activities of a national office and branches in every state and territory. http://www.anf.org.au/

south africa:

the democratic nursing organisation of south africa (denosa)

denmark

danish nurses organization (dno)

founded in 1899, the dno safeguards the interests of about 73,000 nurses in regard to professional matters, salary and employment as well as organizational interests. membership is voluntary and approx. 95% of all danish nurses including nursing students and pensioners are members

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international council of nurses (icn)

the international council of nurses is a federation of national nurses' associations (nnas), representing nurses in more than 120 countries. founded in 1899, icn is the world's first and widest reaching international organisation for health professionals. operated by nurses for nurses, icn works to ensure quality nursing care for all, sound health policies globally, the advancement of nursing knowledge, and the presence worldwide of a respected nursing profession and a competent and satisfied nursing workforce.

the icn code for nurses is the foundation for ethical nursing practice throughout the world. icn standards, guidelines and policies for nursing practice, education, management, research and socio-economic welfare are accepted globally as the basis of nursing policy.

socio-economic welfare: http://www.icn.ch/sew.htm

fair and equitable compensation and other work benefits for nurses are major concerns of icn. in some countries, the nna operates as a union engaging in collective bargaining for the profession. in others the nna, although not recognised as a union, may be involved in a number of workplace advocacy activities. such programmes have intensified in recent years, as governments and employers struggling to hold down healthcare costs have revised staffing mixes and have clamped down on salary increases. this has forced the profession to refocus the system's attention away from the cost of nursing to the value of nursing. many recent studies have demonstrated that nurses are the best investment in health care.

policy statement: socio-economic welfare of nurses (2004)

see: 2004 icn nursing workforce profile

newsletter: the impact of nurses' working hours on patient safety