Since 2008, some 15,000 attorney and legal-staff jobs at large firms have vanished, according to a Northwestern Law study. Associates have been laid off, partners nudged out the door and recruitment programs have been scaled back or eliminated.
And with corporations scrutinizing their legal expenses as never before, more entry-level legal work is now outsourced to contract temporary employees, both in the United States and in countries like India. It’s common to hear lawyers fret about the sort of tectonic shift that crushed the domestic steel industry decades ago.
But improbably enough, law schools have concluded that life for newly minted grads is getting sweeter, at least by one crucial measure. In 1997, when U.S. News first published a statistic called “graduates known to be employed nine months after graduation,” law schools reported an average employment rate of 84 percent. In the most recent U.S. News rankings, 93 percent of grads were working — nearly a 10-point jump.
I have to say though that I have little sympathy for the guy featured in the article. He didn't only take out loans to pay tuition. He also lived large while in school. I went to a state school and lived frugally. I took out only enough loans to cover tuition and childcare expenses.
I just thought I would post something. I am still an unemployed new grad of May 2010. I did an impromptu survey of my colleagues who are on Facebook. I wanted to see just how many got nursing jobs and, of those people, how many new grads were hired at each institution. The results I got were astonishing. Several of my colleagues moved out of state, a few got jobs but most didnt. Within the tri-state area (NY, NJ, CT) 24 people out of my graduating class of 47 got nursing jobs. The vast majority of those were already working as nurses aides in the facility that hired them.
But here is the kicker. Most facilities only hired 1-2 new grads. 2 facilities hired 3 new grads. No facility hired more than 3.
What the heck: I might as well list the facilities. What are they going to do? Sue me?
WHITE PLAINS HOSPITAL: Has a nurse apprentice program that they tout, but did not hire any new grads. Nurse apprentice is for training while in school from what I understand. It is to interest students in nursing. Only one of my colleagues works there and she is working as an aide.
NYU: one new grad
COLUMBIA PRESBYTERIAN: 2, one of whom was already working there as an aide
HUNTINGTON HOSPITAL, LONG ISLAND: 1
PUTNAM HOSPITAL: 2, at least one of whom was already working there as an aide
VASSAR HOSPITAL: 2, unknown if either of them was working as an aide previously.
ST FRANCIS HOSPITAL: 2, both of whom were working there as aides
ORANGE REGIONAL MEDICAL CENTER: 3, at least one of whom was working there as an aide
ST LUKE'S HOSPITAL, NEWBURGH: 3, unknown aide status
COHEN CHILDRENS MED CENTER, PART OF LONG ISLAND JEWISH HOSPITAL: 1
18 TOTAL FOR NEW YORK
THIS IS THE END FOR ALL THE NEW YORK HIRES.
NEW JERSEY HIRES:
ENGLEWOOD HOSPITAL: 1
MORRIS HILLS CENTER NURSING HOME: 1
VALLEY HOSPITAL, N.J.: 2
4 TOTAL NEW JERSEY HIRES
CONNECTICUT:
UCONN HOSPITAL: 1
GRIFFIN HOSPITAL, DERBY CT: 1
2 TOTAL CONNECTICUT HIRES
Keep in mind that these are all baccalaureate-prepared nurses.
If this pattern holds throughout the U.S., then it is no wonder none of us have jobs. If facilities are only going to hire 1 or 2 new grads, with hundreds being pumped out and passing boards monthly, in addition to the number of hospitals lessening as they go belly up, it should be no surprise what is happening to all of us.
I know that none of us believed that this could happen. We were all so set on passing, learning the material, etc. We all heard over and over about the nursing shortage, which turned out to be bogus. And we believed it.
I hear experienced nurses saying incessantly to "hang in there" and that "this has happened before" and that the "economy will turn".
Well, according to Robert Reich, the economy will not be turning anytime soon. It was on C-Span and other places that the economy will take at least 5 years to return to a decent unemployment rate of 6%. There is no way that the economy can mop up or absorb all the jobs that have been lost, ever. Many of these jobs were with major corporations who have offshored the work. One cannot expect private business to absorb all these displaced workers.
And with displaced workers comes lack of health insurance. I just read tonight that the number of uninsured (and that includes me...I have not been able to afford to see a doctor since 2008, when I last had insurance) is now closing in on 50 million. If Congress trashes the health care bill (and we know they have no plans to replace it with significant legislation) this will only get worse.
I have been with my husband in one of our local hospitals over the past several weeks. He is dying of end stage liver disease and has been in and out several times. They keep discharging him because his time ran out under his current DRG. Last week he had major abdominal surgery and admin wanted him out after 4 days because insurance was no longer paying. (His nurse told me this.) Well, they tossed him out and he was readmitted today with a massive infection after only 3 days. In any event, while I have been in there with him, I have been keeping an eye on the census on the multiple floors he has been admitted to. People, we are down to about a 50% census and alot of empty beds. The money simply is not there to hire and train new grads. No patients = less need for nurses. Will people get sick and need to be hospitalized? Of course they will. But they will put it off as long as possible and when they do go in will be unable to pay or will be coming in under Medicaid which pays ZIP.
I know that some people on these boards have found jobs. They are one of the lucky few. For most of us, those jobs will either never come or will come in 10 years when our skills have dried up. This is the hard truth of it.
Just read your post and even not knowing you, my heart goes out to you and your husband.
I actually just finished reading that story and was getting ready to post a link to it here!
When I think about analogies between nursing school and law school, a few questions come to mind. I know nursing school is generally much cheaper than law school, but are certain nursing schools still saying there is a great market and their students will get good jobs? Towards the end of the NY Times article, it says that likely the bottom third of law schools will need to close. Could the same thing be said for nursing schools?
I don't know the answer to any of those questions but they came to mind when I read the story.
I think that this definately could happen. The government keeps saying there is such a nursing shortage that I heard one Senator proposed a bill to put more money into nurse educators. However, shortage of nurse educators for nursing students is not the problem. There are so many new graduate nurses coming out every semester that can't find jobs it's ridiculous. There is shortage because a lot of hospitals want exprienced only. HOW CAN A RN EVER GET EXPERIENCE IF THEY CAN NOT GET A JOB AS A NEW GRAD??? Eventually I think our profession will become saturated because we keep making nursin programs bigger and offering more seats and hospitals are not paying attention to new grads, so there are a lot of RNs that are off the map without jobs not being counted when they do a statistical review of how many jobs are left open and "the so called nursing shortage". However, with this being said I don't think it will happen soon, but I definately think its a possibility.
Do I think the schools will close. Heck no!! Are you kidding they will lie and tell you the job market is good. Those nurse educators wouldn't want to loose their jobs. ---------Example in point, my mother went back to school at the ripe age of 47 and graduated at age 50. She went through a radiology program at a community college (STATE FAIR COMMUNITY COLLEGE locating in MISSOURI) Just putting the name out there because I absolutely hate them and their instructors. I would so love to give them a piece of my mind! My mother went through hell in that program...a married teacher was having an affair with students, there was cheating going on between classmates, and my mom's classmates would try to back stab her in clinicals. My mother is a very sweet honest person and didn't deserve to be treated badly. But her classmates were very mean to her and I think partly becasue she was older and not some teenager, like them. Anyway back to the point the teachers were telling them there was such a high demand for Radiology Techs when the truth is across the entire nation jobs are scarce. Every semester this program swipes up innocent students and fill them with high hopes and then every semester a group graduates and maybe 1 or 2 will find a fulltime job as a radiology tech and anothe 1 0r 2 will find a partime job. ANd the majority will go jobless or find a minimum wage job without benefits. It's disgusting and these teachers are pathetic only trying to save their own butts.-----------
Anyway back to the point the teachers were telling them there was such a high demand for Radiology Techs when the truth is across the entire nation jobs are scarce. Every semester this program swipes up innocent students and fill them with high hopes and then every semester a group graduates and maybe 1 or 2 will find a fulltime job as a radiology tech and anothe 1 0r 2 will find a partime job. ANd the majority will go jobless or find a minimum wage job without benefits. It's disgusting and these teachers are pathetic only trying to save their own butts.-----------
I mean no disrespect to your mother at all, but what responsibility do the potential students have in this scenario? IMO, taking the school's word for it that a particular occupation is in great demand without doing any research on your own is sort of like taking a car salesman's recommendation about which car you should buy without doing any investigating or thinking about it yourself ...
I can say that in my own research, I have seen some schools still pushing the idea of a nursing shortage while others are acknowledging that right now there is a surplus. I had a relative who wanted to do a radiology tech program herself because it promised a good paying job. I felt badly about it because I knew there was a risk of her being pulled into it and then jobs not being there. Sometimes reality and a splash of cold water aren't that far apart
I see your point, but the school does a yearly survey of post graduates and obviously the school is lying by keeping the program open when all the graduates have filled out their surveys saying they are unemployed or have not been able to secure a job as a rad tech ,but as some other job working minimum wage..... I believe instructors should serve with integrity...and obviously they do not find that to be part of their job description. And my mother did do online research and there was nothing indicating job prospects were bad. I guess what she should of done was look up job openings rather than the governments prediction of job probability, pay, statistics, etc in OOH. However with that being said this was in Missouri and they only have two local hospitals without driving an hour or two into the city, so my mother new there weren't a lot of opportunities where she lives, but my mother has searched nationwide with no luck. And the same thing goes with nursing, the instructors act like its easy to get a job, but after moving from MO to DC unless you have experience its hard to find a job....at least where i'm at anyway.
I mean no disrespect to your mother at all, but what responsibility do the potential students have in this scenario? IMO, taking the school's word for it that a particular occupation is in great demand without doing any research on your own is sort of like taking a car salesman's recommendation about which car you should buy without doing any investigating or thinking about it yourself ...
In the case of nursing, at least, at the time I started there WAS a nursing shortage and nurses who graduated right up until 2008 or so had no trouble finding jobs. Starting around 2009 I started reading here on allnurses that new grads were having a hard time. But by then I had finished all my pre-reqs and had just been accepted into an accelerated nursing program--I was too far in to turn back. I have no resentment against the nursing school, and I think having my BSN is a valuable accomplishment regardless of the job market. However, nursing schools who continue to push the lie about a nursing shortage are culpable, IMO, for misleading potential students.
I mean no disrespect to your mother at all, but what responsibility do the potential students have in this scenario? IMO, taking the school's word for it that a particular occupation is in great demand without doing any research on your own is sort of like taking a car salesman's recommendation about which car you should buy without doing any investigating or thinking about it yourself ...
Well, if she did investigate she may have found the Bureau of Labor Statistics' report projecting a 17 percent increase in the next 10 years...
She checked there....that's what OOH is.. and when she checked it was back in 2005 or 2004 when she started going to school. Have no idea what the exact projection percentage was at that time.
But this is the problem with models to begin with. All of us (myself included) tend to put too much stock in them. From the heady days of the housing boom when models showed prices only continuing to go up to models that showed the nursing shortage being really bad, all models have their limitations which get overlooked. I have no doubt nowadays that thousands of people are looking at those BLS pages showing whatever increase in demand for whichever profession and making a career choice based on that. As the current glut of nurses shows us, even a real shortage in a profession doesn't necessarily translate to more jobs in the profession.
You can't make a model projecting one variable (patient census and acuity) to go up while holding all other variables steady. Supply of nurses follows demand. Why would anyone making these models assume that the rates of people applying to nursing schools and receiving their license would hold steady over the years?
# of new grads can just as easily be projected. I don't think they doubt the number who apply will increase....especially in any health profession after needs of health care are expected to increase due to an aging population. There is an estimated number of new grads each year based on past averages. It is also factored on the number who actually get accepted into programs, while many apply not all will get in the first time due to seat availability. Must also factor in the small percent who drop out, or don't meet program requirements and get kicked out. Then there is the estimated number of increase due to new programs being opened not previously there, and some programs who increase seat availability. However, it would take several years for the "rates of people applying to nursing schools and receiving their license who hold steady over the years" to really affect the projected employment rate unless there was an unforseen boom in number of programs, seat availability, and availiable nurse instructors employed.
There is still a large need for nurses.......and it will continue to grow for some time. There is an unemployment problem with inexperienced nurses and new graduates simply b/c hospitals are not willing to put more money in their budgets to train new nurses. In DC/VA/MD I'm seeing large numbers of job openings for nurses but almost all have the stipulation "EXPERIENCED RN ONLY" whereas back in the Kansas City area my classmates have had no trouble securing jobs. Its all based on economy right now. Some hospital budgets are smaller whether it be because of census, lack of health insurance, etc. I also think jobs are scarce b/c those who are employed, are working longer and well into their age of retirement. Once again these people have experience, but are also getting paid more to work a shift than someone who has only been working 5-10 years. Which all goes back to budget.
I don't think nursing schools need to close. I think they need to curb enrollment. Having a smaller class has a number of benefits. you get more one-on-one time with instructors, clinical experiences are better if you're not in a huge group, more time to practice in lab etc. Of course if the program isn't well run you might not get a good experience even in a smaller class.
In PA they need to. No one city needs more than 20 nursing school options and mine does. This creates massive gluts of new grads and no jobs. I graduate in December and I know there won't be a job waiting for me unless I want to move across the country, something I was really hoping to avoid!!
No one city needs more than 20 nursing school options and mine does. This creates massive gluts of new grads and no jobs. I graduate in December and I know there won't be a job waiting for me unless I want to move across the country, something I was really hoping to avoid!!
Barbara Hessinger
54 Posts
Just read your post and even not knowing you, my heart goes out to you and your husband.
Best wishes for both of you,
Barbara