Unemployed? Student Loans? At least you didn't go to LAW SCHOOL

elkpark · Jan 9, 2011

I have to say though that I have little sympathy for the guy featured in the article. He didn't only take out loans to pay tuition. He also lived large while in school. I went to a state school and lived frugally. I took out only enough loans to cover tuition and childcare expenses.

Yeah -- I had a boyfriend years ago who went to law school (we were living together, so I moved with him) at a modest, fourth-tier law school and the school folks were v. insistent about reminding students that they were taking on a lot of debt they would be repaying, and they should be v. careful about living frugally and not taking out any more loans than absolutely necessary. The Dean of the school's favorite saying was, "If you live like a lawyer while you're in school, you'll be living like a student once you're a lawyer."

Of course, the same applies to nursing school, esp. when you start talking about the more expensive accelerated BSN and direct-entry MSN programs.

want2banrn · Jan 9, 2011

I actually just finished reading that story and was getting ready to post a link to it here!

When I think about analogies between nursing school and law school, a few questions come to mind. I know nursing school is generally much cheaper than law school, but are certain nursing schools still saying there is a great market and their students will get good jobs? Towards the end of the NY Times article, it says that likely the bottom third of law schools will need to close. Could the same thing be said for nursing schools?

I don't know the answer to any of those questions but they came to mind when I read the story.

JeanettePNP, MSN, RN, NP · Jan 9, 2011

I don't think nursing schools need to close. I think they need to curb enrollment. Having a smaller class has a number of benefits. you get more one-on-one time with instructors, clinical experiences are better if you're not in a huge group, more time to practice in lab etc. Of course if the program isn't well run you might not get a good experience even in a smaller class.

elkpark · Jan 9, 2011

I don't think nursing schools need to close. I think they need to curb enrollment. Having a smaller class has a number of benefits. you get more one-on-one time with instructors, clinical experiences are better if you're not in a huge group, more time to practice in lab etc. Of course if the program isn't well run you might not get a good experience even in a smaller class.

I disagree -- we went through a phase during the last "shortage" when all the state legislatures were pushing schools to increase enrollment and making it easier to open nursing programs in most states, and there were new nursing schools popping up on every corner like mushrooms after a spring rain. There are plenty of nursing schools in the US which are of poor, low quality (although they manage to meet the bare minimum standards enough to avoid getting shut down). I think that the current glut would be a wonderful opportunity to take a close look at which schools are really doing an adequate job of preparing nurses, and close down some of the cheesier schools. I would much prefer to see a smaller number of good nursing schools that turn out well-educated, well-prepared graduates, than the "quantity, not quality" philosophy that has prevailed in nursing for the last couple decades. State BONs already set limits on how many students can be in clinical groups, and, in my state, at least (I don't know if this is true everywhere) require schools to show that they have adequate faculty and clinical facilities to accommodate the number of students they want to enroll before the BON will authorize them to increase enrollment. Those standards are well-established and, I think, pretty reasonable. If schools enroll fewer students, they won't provide more instructor contact than they are now -- they'll just lay off faculty.

JeanettePNP, MSN, RN, NP · Jan 9, 2011

We had 10 students per faculty during clinicals and I think that was too many... but point taken. Schools aren't going to decrease their student:faculty ratio just by curbing enrollment.

want2banrn · Jan 9, 2011

Does anyone know anything about the number of for-profit nursing schools? How many students do they graduate each year?

Tankweti · Jan 11, 2011

I just thought I would post something. I am still an unemployed new grad of May 2010. I did an impromptu survey of my colleagues who are on Facebook. I wanted to see just how many got nursing jobs and, of those people, how many new grads were hired at each institution. The results I got were astonishing. Several of my colleagues moved out of state, a few got jobs but most didnt. Within the tri-state area (NY, NJ, CT) 24 people out of my graduating class of 47 got nursing jobs. The vast majority of those were already working as nurses aides in the facility that hired them.

But here is the kicker. Most facilities only hired 1-2 new grads. 2 facilities hired 3 new grads. No facility hired more than 3.

What the heck: I might as well list the facilities. What are they going to do? Sue me?

WHITE PLAINS HOSPITAL: Has a nurse apprentice program that they tout, but did not hire any new grads. Nurse apprentice is for training while in school from what I understand. It is to interest students in nursing. Only one of my colleagues works there and she is working as an aide.

NYU: one new grad

COLUMBIA PRESBYTERIAN: 2, one of whom was already working there as an aide

HUNTINGTON HOSPITAL, LONG ISLAND: 1

PUTNAM HOSPITAL: 2, at least one of whom was already working there as an aide

VASSAR HOSPITAL: 2, unknown if either of them was working as an aide previously.

ST FRANCIS HOSPITAL: 2, both of whom were working there as aides

ORANGE REGIONAL MEDICAL CENTER: 3, at least one of whom was working there as an aide

ST LUKE'S HOSPITAL, NEWBURGH: 3, unknown aide status

COHEN CHILDRENS MED CENTER, PART OF LONG ISLAND JEWISH HOSPITAL: 1

18 TOTAL FOR NEW YORK

THIS IS THE END FOR ALL THE NEW YORK HIRES.

NEW JERSEY HIRES:

ENGLEWOOD HOSPITAL: 1

MORRIS HILLS CENTER NURSING HOME: 1

VALLEY HOSPITAL, N.J.: 2

4 TOTAL NEW JERSEY HIRES

CONNECTICUT:

UCONN HOSPITAL: 1

GRIFFIN HOSPITAL, DERBY CT: 1

2 TOTAL CONNECTICUT HIRES

Keep in mind that these are all baccalaureate-prepared nurses.

If this pattern holds throughout the U.S., then it is no wonder none of us have jobs. If facilities are only going to hire 1 or 2 new grads, with hundreds being pumped out and passing boards monthly, in addition to the number of hospitals lessening as they go belly up, it should be no surprise what is happening to all of us.

I know that none of us believed that this could happen. We were all so set on passing, learning the material, etc. We all heard over and over about the nursing shortage, which turned out to be bogus. And we believed it.

I hear experienced nurses saying incessantly to "hang in there" and that "this has happened before" and that the "economy will turn".

Well, according to Robert Reich, the economy will not be turning anytime soon. It was on C-Span and other places that the economy will take at least 5 years to return to a decent unemployment rate of 6%. There is no way that the economy can mop up or absorb all the jobs that have been lost, ever. Many of these jobs were with major corporations who have offshored the work. One cannot expect private business to absorb all these displaced workers.

And with displaced workers comes lack of health insurance. I just read tonight that the number of uninsured (and that includes me...I have not been able to afford to see a doctor since 2008, when I last had insurance) is now closing in on 50 million. If Congress trashes the health care bill (and we know they have no plans to replace it with significant legislation) this will only get worse.

I have been with my husband in one of our local hospitals over the past several weeks. He is dying of end stage liver disease and has been in and out several times. They keep discharging him because his time ran out under his current DRG. Last week he had major abdominal surgery and admin wanted him out after 4 days because insurance was no longer paying. (His nurse told me this.) Well, they tossed him out and he was readmitted today with a massive infection after only 3 days. In any event, while I have been in there with him, I have been keeping an eye on the census on the multiple floors he has been admitted to. People, we are down to about a 50% census and alot of empty beds. The money simply is not there to hire and train new grads. No patients = less need for nurses. Will people get sick and need to be hospitalized? Of course they will. But they will put it off as long as possible and when they do go in will be unable to pay or will be coming in under Medicaid which pays ZIP.

I know that some people on these boards have found jobs. They are one of the lucky few. For most of us, those jobs will either never come or will come in 10 years when our skills have dried up. This is the hard truth of it.

JeanettePNP, MSN, RN, NP · Jan 11, 2011

Tankweti, interesting survey. Out of my class of 60 I only know of 10 who are employed in NYC hospitals. There may be others that I don't know about, and a number moved upstate or out of state. I'm just worried that I missed the hiring crest for this year and now I'll have another long wait...

Purple_Scrubs, BSN, RN · Jan 11, 2011

I had been accepted to Law School with a $30k scholarship when my husband became ill. That experience led me to decline law school and start my nursing pre-reqs. Based on the above article, I think I made the right decision, lol. I am fortunate to have found my niche in nursing early, though. I ain't letting this job go without a fight!

elkpark · Jan 11, 2011

I also wanted to point out that a big focus of the article was how the US News & World Report annual rankings of law schools are, at best, useless and, at worse, downright deceptive. The same is true of the US News annual "rankings" of nursing schools -- but how often do we see potential students on this site talking about choosing a school on the basis of those rankings? (I do often post, when someone is talking about that, and point out why that's not a useful or helpful way to choose a school, because it's a particular bugaboo of mine.)

JeanettePNP, MSN, RN, NP · Jan 11, 2011

Yes, it's the law schools fudging numbers about how many of their graduates are employed. And it's the nursing schools who keep sounding the trumpet about a nursing shortage.