Unassisted birth on GMA this morning!?

ruralnurs · Jul 16, 2008

In the past 24 hours, we had 3 babies die on us between the NICU and the ER.

I think we need to becareful of generalizing (if that is a word??) about deaths of infants in hospitals, just like we can't blame every home birth that has "gone bad" on the simple fact that the child was at home. Bad things happen. After you become a nurse you may see that not all pregnant women put the infant in thier belly first. I have 6 children and always thought that all women loved thier babies like I did. No way, there are women that smoke and drink and do drugs and don't eat right and etc. etc. etc. Then you have abruptions, IUGR, NAS, fetal anomalies, etc. and no mater where that baby was born it will struggle and may die.

It is very sad when any child or woman dies at home or in the hospital, but many times we can't say that the bad situation happened just because of where they were.

missjennmb · Jul 16, 2008

you completely misunderstood me... I never said that the deaths in my hospital were a result of them being born in the hospital. 2 of them were premature, one was half of a set of twins, and the third died outside of the hospital and came via ER when it was too late to do anything at all. I never said I knew the exact reasons for any of their deaths, only that it was very sad for us all, and that it brings back that fear that something bad could happen, even to me, who is a staunch supporter of allowing the parents to make educated birth choices. I saw the amount of time one of these babies spent in the hospital, and all of the energy put in to helping him, trying to help him make it. It was very very sad, and rocked me to my core. I was sharing that, how I understand that seeing this sort of thing can make people blind to other options.

I will say though, that if MANY other countries have a lower infant mortality rate, and they are doing midwife based / home and birth center based care for lower risk pregnancies (and they classify risks differently) then I do think that we have "on average" (not speaking of any specific baby) about 4 more babies dying for every 1000 than we need to.

Going off topic perhaps, or maybe not, but the way that we "put it in God's hands...er I mean the doctor's hands" in my opinion, makes women feel less as though they need to take care of themselves because its not their responsibility. Its not true, but I really with my entire being believe that in taking the woman out of the picture in her birth decisions, takes her out of it in regards to her putting her baby first as well. I could probably write a book about my reasons behind that, and I'm not sure how to sum it up in one post, but we cannot expect women to take responsibility for growing the babies in their tummy, when we say we have a pill for everything, and give the assumption that "we will take care of everything" as medical providers.

Perhaps I took this wrong, but please don't assume that because I am not yet a nurse, I don't see reality. I am 31, have 3 children, have been working for 15 years, some of which in less than savory environments. I have worked in child services seeing women try to get their children back via court without even taking the time to sober up or get gum out of their hair first. I have seen children black and blue because their parents really did not give a damn about them as anything more than a punching bag and children cry when we pulled them from the homes of those very same abusive parents. I don't like to talk about that part of my past, because I don't like to see the whole world that way, but please don't assume that I am nieve just because I am not a nurse. I don't know all the med terms or the specific nursing duties and experiences, but I have had my fair and unfortunate share of seeing some of the injustices of life...and that is a very big part of what spurs me towards helping others, and becoming a nurse.

epiphany · Jul 16, 2008

I think we need to becareful of generalizing (if that is a word??) about deaths of infants in hospitals, just like we can't blame every home birth that has "gone bad" on the simple fact that the child was at home. Bad things happen. After you become a nurse you may see that not all pregnant women put the infant in thier belly first. I have 6 children and always thought that all women loved thier babies like I did. No way, there are women that smoke and drink and do drugs and don't eat right and etc. etc. etc. Then you have abruptions, IUGR, NAS, fetal anomalies, etc. and no mater where that baby was born it will struggle and may die.
It is very sad when any child or woman dies at home or in the hospital, but many times we can't say that the bad situation happened just because of where they were.

I can't help but notice that you have generalized that women who don't put their babies on their bellies love them less than those who do. I don't know which side of the issue you're on, but its smacks a little of being judgmental of women when you say that, and the premise of this whole argument is how people are putting guilt and judgment on women who should be encouraged, supported and yes, you can even question why they don't want the babies on their bellies if it personally confounds you, but not to make assumptions about their character because they don't do what you do.

Jenlaana is articulating her views openly and honestly, and we truly need this kind of dialogue explore the whole picture and you hurt her and women who are willing to discuss this by taking a "sound-bite" out of context.

ruralnurs · Jul 16, 2008

I think we need to becareful of generalizing (if that is a word??) about deaths of infants in hospitals, just like we can't blame every home birth that has "gone bad" on the simple fact that the child was at home. Bad things happen. After you become a nurse you may see that not all pregnant women

put the infant in thier belly first

. I have 6 children and always thought that all women loved thier babies like I did. No way, there are women that smoke and drink and do drugs and don't eat right and etc. etc. etc. Then you have abruptions, IUGR, NAS, fetal anomalies, etc. and no mater where that baby was born it will struggle and may die.

It is very sad when any child or woman dies at home or in the hospital, but many times we can't say that the bad situation happened just because of

where

they were.

"I can't help but notice that you have generalized that women who don't put their babies on their bellies love them less than those who do. I don't know which side of the issue you're on, but its smacks a little of being judgmental of women when you say that, and the premise of this whole argument is how people are putting guilt and judgment on women who should be encouraged, supported and yes, you can even question why they don't want the babies on their bellies if it personally confounds you, but not to make assumptions about their character because they don't do what you do.

Jenlaana is articulating her views openly and honestly, and we truly need this kind of dialogue explore the whole picture and you hurt her and women who are willing to discuss this by taking a "sound-bite" out of context."

Please re-read my post. I did not say that women that don't put thier babies "ON" thier bellies love them less, I said women that don't put thier babies first, i.e. that they think of themselves and thier desires to please themsleves (smoke, drink, do drugs, etc.) is more important than the health of thier baby.

As far as my position on homebirth... ("I don't know what side of the issue you're on") I think that families should have the choice and the support to birth babies in the safest environment they choose. Unfortunately where I am and work I see more women wanting the elective induction (we refuse to do at our hosp), epidural the moment they step through the doors, elective c-sec (we don't do either), and after I have the epidural I want my family to push me outside with a wheelchair so I can have a smoke.

I actively support homebirth, I provide childbirth classes for free to anyone no matter where they are birthing, in my hopsital, another hospital or home birth. For that matter we have lots (compared to the number of people we have in our rural county) of families that see our docs for prenantal care and them plan a home birth with the blessings of our docs. The familie know that if anything happens they need help with they will be welcomed with open arms by the nurses and docs here.

I wrote what I did as Jelaana just mentioned that 3 babies died in the hospital, leaving the reader to determine the reason they died.

As far as judging women that are pregant and do drugs, yes I judge them, they are wrong and there are lots of ways they can get help and not damage the baby they are carrying.

missjennmb · Jul 16, 2008

as I said, I mentioned that as a personal aside, because it hurt me and brought home the crux of this issue... we as a people are scared. It was not to "leave the reader to decide how they died". It was not even suggested that they died due to being in the hospital (I hadnt even made a comment such as place of birth resulting in statistically changed fetal outcomes until way later in the thread?)

I made the incorrect assumption that, since this is a medical forum, we would all realize that there are many reasons why babies die beyond just place of birth, and just saying "3 babies in a hospital died" does not in any way give enough information to say why or how. (sounds kinda like an nclex question I just read actually about not assuming details) My apologies for not clarifying. I mentioned it, not for the reasons surrounding the death, but to bring home the weight of this issue...we're not talking about choices that make people FEEL better/worse, we're talking about someone's very small and very precious life. Its a hard thing to look in the face sometimes. I can't get those poor babies names out of my mind. Even now, a week later, it brings me to the edge of tears to think of their lives snuffed out so early. I just try to use that experience to make the world better, and to redouble my efforts to help, any way that I can.

There are ways to lower infant mortality that have proven to work, but I wouldn't presume to make a judgement call in a situation where I didn't know all of the details. Specific cases I won't try to figure out, but general statistics are pretty obvious, don't you think?

On that note, I just wanted to say thank you all for being a part of this debate, because as the PP said, we need to understand the whole issue, and keep communication open.

Belinda-wales, RN · Jul 16, 2008

[As far as judging women that are pregant and do drugs, yes I judge them, they are wrong and there are lots of ways they can get help and not damage the baby they are carrying.

I find it hard to belive that people who are nurses or midwives are judgmental - I belive you shuld keep your personal judgments to your self and offer equal unbiased care to everyone no matter what. Life is never black and white there are plenty of areas of grey- you think every pregnant who women is drug addicted and get the support to give up drugs as well as sort out the route cause of drug addiction you are missguided- life is really hard for some people for many different reasons as a nurse we have a duty to care not judge.

ruralnurs · Jul 16, 2008

I have been thinking since I read your comment. One can be considered "judgemental" and provide excellent care. I worked for 5 1/2 years in-patient psych and cared for many people such as pedophiles and was always professional. I understand about people and addictions, most of those I cared for in psych had addictions and came from horribly abusive childhoods. I know things are not black and white.

So the quote is, "I was badly abused as a child, neglected, sexually molested, and now I have this addiction, I don't mean to hurt anyone, I can't help myself, even though I have tried. I actually love the child that I am hurting, and it isn't that bad anyway. No one understands and I am doing the best I can."

So is this the confession of a pregnant woman that does drugs.......or a sexual predator??? It could come for either one. Are we to be non-judgemental to pedophiles as well? I understand we need to be tolerant of others. Other ways of living, religions, cultures, beliefs, etc. But some things are not tolerable and I will not pretend they are. Hurting another innocent person is intolerable and I will judge it. No matter how we cover it up, sugar coat it, rationalize it or whatever, hurting an innocent baby it wrong, whether it is through an unnecessary c-section or use of drugs in pregnancy.

And to quote you from another post, " Why would two countries who are brothers in arms and have a deep and historic history be so distant on birth - one reason and one reason only birth makes a lot of doctors rich in the usa.- nothing to do with birth trauma or safty dont kid your selves hard cash is what it is all about. "

Someone could consider that a pretty "judgemental" statement, however I consider it an opinion. If it were not for the many variety of opinions on the site it would not be so educational.

Belinda-wales, RN · Jul 16, 2008

Once again you live in a black and white world the world is a gray place - yes pedophiles are used in every argument discussing judgment as it is seen along with child murder as the gravest of acts in society-do I like it no but when I am giving care do I judge them or offer them unbiased care- the later why because I have a duty of care - is it not the case that many were abused them selves. As for my statment about rich doctors- you misunderstood that is not a judgment it is a fact.