Trump's 'religious conscience'

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Has anyone heard of this? Its saying that basically ANY healthcare worker has the right as of July 22nd to refuse care to a patient due to the healthcare worker's moral beliefs or religion. I'm so confused. First of all we as healthcare workers are here to help EVERYONE. Most people think it will effect LGBTQ or women, which I can definitely see happening. I mean rapists are against my morals so does that mean I can refuse treatment? I've been looking this up trying to find some clarification.

On the NPR website it states "Last month, the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services put out a new rule that "implements full and robust enforcement" of existing laws that protect what the administration calls "conscience rights" for health care workers. The rule is set to go into effect on July 22."

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/06/11/730659035/-patients-will-die-one-county-s-challenge-to-trump-s-conscience-rights-rule

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/28/politics/legal-challenge-hhs-conscience-objection-rule/index.html

I added two links of articles I have found on it, still confused though. Any thoughts or facts you guys have?

Specializes in NICU/Neonatal transport.
14 hours ago, subee said:

Hi LilPeanut: Yes, I know the difference between spontaneous vs. an elective ab..but I wish I had you with me to explain the difference to the moron who refused to participate in a missed AB because she thought it was an abortion. This was an experienced OR nurse. I was at a loss of words:)

Sorry I misunderstood what you were saying LOL But I'm of the opinion it shouldn't matter, to refuse care of a patient like that means you don't deserve to work in health care. Arguably, you don't deserve to be part of the human race.

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7 hours ago, MEINstudent said:

In response to the highlighted portion above, your logic is flawed. If a healthcare worker is refusing to participate in an objectionable procedure of an LGBT person, it is not discrimination. They are objecting to the procedure, not the person. I realize that there are some people who may abuse this law, but the law is still necessary, and eventually those people out themselves as bigots and racists and get what's coming to them.

States are battling over abortion rights. And while you may think it's terrible that one state has passed the heartbeat law, I think it is far, far worse that other states are loosening restrictions way past the point of viability. Try googling "abortion horror stories", and it will pull up a NYT story on late term abortions that includes a woman who legally got an abortion at 30 weeks of a healthy baby because she did not want to be a mother. That is just wrong. Late term abortions don't just happen for fetal anomalies. It's infanticide and killing the most defenseless members of our society.

You are trying to excuse yourself by saying it's the procedure you don't want to do, unless you are working on a cadaver, you are talking about a human being.

The abortion issue is completely too vast and varied for any of us to judge. People get abortion for all kinds of reasons and that is only the decision of the person carrying. Yes, I would hope that by 30 weeks someone didn't just decide to have an abortion, but it sounds like you are just talking about a report and not having actually talked to the woman. How do you know she wasn't experiencing extreme mental health problems that she was contemplating killing herself vs having the abortion, how do you know that she was trying to do what everyone was telling her was right by having the baby, but was holding back that it was a product of rape or an abusive relationship? I've also read about a woman who had an abortion later because the baby was going to have just a few hours to live and what life the baby did have would have been spent in extreme pain. If we say that abortion can't happen after this set black and white cut off we aren't taking into account the endless number of reasons one could need this. There is a whole lot more than we can be doing to prevent abortion that isn't banning it.

I'm glad that you are able to sign a form saying that you won't participate in that, it sounds like that is working for you and your hospital. I'm curious what other procedures are healthcare providers able to "opt out of" and how does the hospital ensure that there is someone to provide these services in the case that multiple people have opted out?

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51 minutes ago, CamMc said:

You are trying to excuse yourself by saying it's the procedure you don't want to do, unless you are working on a cadaver, you are talking about a human being.

The abortion issue is completely too vast and varied for any of us to judge. People get abortion for all kinds of reasons and that is only the decision of the person carrying. Yes, I would hope that by 30 weeks someone didn't just decide to have an abortion, but it sounds like you are just talking about a report and not having actually talked to the woman. How do you know she wasn't experiencing extreme mental health problems that she was contemplating killing herself vs having the abortion, how do you know that she was trying to do what everyone was telling her was right by having the baby, but was holding back that it was a product of rape or an abusive relationship? I've also read about a woman who had an abortion later because the baby was going to have just a few hours to live and what life the baby did have would have been spent in extreme pain. If we say that abortion can't happen after this set black and white cut off we aren't taking into account the endless number of reasons one could need this. There is a whole lot more than we can be doing to prevent abortion that isn't banning it.

I'm glad that you are able to sign a form saying that you won't participate in that, it sounds like that is working for you and your hospital. I'm curious what other procedures are healthcare providers able to "opt out of" and how does the hospital ensure that there is someone to provide these services in the case that multiple people have opted out?

I despise Christians because of their victim narratives that they constantly make up as if non Christians come after them.

I rarely see my doctor. I only see him once in a while when I don't feel well. Otherwise, I do my best to take care of myself.

Nobody wants to be in a hospital to be humiliated, implicitly or explicitly. They are there because they have to be. If anyone understands this, that would be nurses. And yet their empathy drops because their "religous conscience" tells them that it is immoral to participate in certain procedures that are necessary to maintain wellbeing for their patients.

Those Christian nurses should get out of nursing, work for religious organizations, or become a clergy.

Otherwise, they should have some guts to mention their DON what they cannot do because of their religions, put it in writing, and follow exactly what they spell out.

I think all healthcare professionals should do the same, especially pharmacists. These people have been given too much lenience to make excuses for their bigotry.

I think a lot of religious nurses want to bake a cake and eat it too. They don't want to be labeled as bigots for not participating procedures that are important for LGBTQ patients, and they want to give their objection whenever it suits their religious narrative out of their butt. That is pathetic, dishonest, and insulting not only to patients but to healthcare profession as well.

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Specializes in NICU/Neonatal transport.

To perform ACLS on a pregnant woman, you must evacuate the uterus, no matter the gestation or the capability for that hospital to care for the baby. You cannot give chest compressions on a gravid woman and expect them to work, the uterus compresses the SVC and inhibits the blood returning to the heart. You have 4 min to achieve ROSC before the algorithm says to empty the uterus.

So, does that get you out of ACLS if the woman is visibly pregnant? She could be 22 weeks, or 30.

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Specializes in retail.
On 6/14/2019 at 9:28 AM, PediatricMA said:

So I've read that this is going to extend further then just abortion. Sign language interpreters can refuse to translate information about birth control. EMTs can refuse to treat. A caregiver can refuse to help dress a disabled transgender person in the clothes of their preference. Is there going to be laws and rules next that police can protect who they choose? Or teachers are only going to teach children that share their beliefs? People in healthcare help others in their hardest of times. I just don't agree with it.

Yes, I think the Police are already doing that. this is a bad law. period.

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Specializes in retail.
On 6/23/2019 at 7:25 PM, MunoRN said:

Our founding fathers and those that came here ahead of them were seeking freedom from religion as much freedom of religion.

To suggest that those who came here seeking religious freedom believed that people should be able to subject others to their religious beliefs and harm is absurd, that's the complete opposite reason of the US was founded.

exactly. AMEN. As usual, religious people misunderstand religious freedom to mean that they can subject others to THEIR beliefs. If you can't be true to your religion, and also take care of ALL people , no matter their private life, then you are FREE not to be a nurse. Nurses should take care of ALL people. period. First, DO NO HARM.

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On 6/18/2019 at 9:44 PM, guest22519 said:

Ever hear of freedom of speech? Just because you’re offended doesn’t make you right. And before you play the victim card and say that what I wrote is hate speech, which is not, even then it is considered free speech by the scotus.

You have got to be kidding. There is no "freedom of speech" on a private website message board.

It's amazing how little understanding people have about the 1st Amendment protections.

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29 minutes ago, Horseshoe said:

You have got to be kidding. There is no "freedom of speech" on a private website message board.

It's amazing how little understanding people have about the 1st Amendment protections.

Yeah that user got blocked and his replies to the two people who also told him this were super rude, essentially that he didn't care. And the nonsense he was sending me started because I pressed disagree on one of his posts. Which by his logic I should also have freedom of speech, but agreed, that's not how it works.

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Specializes in SICU, trauma, neuro.
Quote

Those Christian nurses should get out of nursing, work for religious organizations, or become a clergy.

Honest question... should Muslims and Jews and other religious people get out of nursing too? Or is your vitriol reserved for Christians only?

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48 minutes ago, Here.I.Stand said:

Honest question... should Muslims and Jews and other religious people get out of nursing too? Or is your vitriol reserved for Christians only?

If their religions compromise their compassion for their patients and make them obey their tenets and dogmas instead of the patients' needs and wellbeing, absolutely.

There are some Buddhists who don't want to touch women because they are concerned that their zen mind would be troubled when they look at beautiful patients. If that's the case, they should get out of nursing.

I don't give a pass for any religion including my own. Apparently, seeing how Mr President panders Christians' theocratic ideology, I despise them more than other religious groups. They are the ones who stir up all these troubles.

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Specializes in retail.

What is so hard to understand? Nurses are supposed to care for people. PERIOD. If your religion keeps you from caring for people, if your religion makes you hesitate before helping someone, ya know, until you can look into his or her personal life...what? that sounds so wrong to most people, and you know why? because it is.

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Specializes in Practice educator.

Us Europeans will never understand Americans obsession with what another person does with their genitals, especially when based on books written thousands of years ago by men who had an understanding of the world that a 10 year old would laugh at.

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