To Vaccinate Or Not To Vaccinate, That Is The Question

Nurses COVID Toon

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Vaccinate or Die!!!

What fears and/or objections have you, personally, or as Nurses caring for your patients, encountered when it comes to vaccinations?

20 minutes ago, nursej22 said:

I am not sure which article you mean, but if it is this one https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16512356/?i=6&from=/15546805/related

it speaks to thimerosal , which was removed from single dose childhood vaccines in 2001, thimerosal was never in MMR. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/thimerosal/index.html

If I am speaking to the wrong article, it is easier to review if you cite the author(s) and date, or source. And I have to believe that there is more research done in 14 years.

It speaks to measles virus, not just the vaccine:

In measles virus infection, it has been postulated that there is immune suppression by inhibiting T-cell proliferation and maturation and downregulation MHC class II expression.

As noted previously, infants have more T-cells than children over the age of 2, which they rely on for immunity. The excess amount of T-cells seem to be a sort of compensatory immune mechanism to deal with lower levels of memory and effector cells. Measles suppresses T-cell proliferation. Dysregulation of the neuronal and immune network would cause autoimmunity and other severe responses in an infant brain that does not have the capacity to respond to the antigens and inflammatory cascade being produced within its bloodstream. There also may be cross reactivity specific to measles and rubella viruses in themselves which induces cross reactivity antigens with human surface cell proteins in some cases.

There are no studies on separating the MMR vaccine into different vaccines most likely because:

Internationally, the MMR vaccine can be separated into single components. For example, measles vaccination can be given without mumps or rubella. In the US, though, the measles vaccine is only available as a combination shot (MMR or MMRV).

2 Votes

A lot of it is a distrust for pharmaceutical companies and politics. It’s not just the science people struggle with. Some people would be more apt to vaccinate if they could get single vaccines vs. combined but they are not made in the USA anymore. If they started making them then some ppl would think something must be wrong with the combo shots and still distrust the companies. There is also a lot of money and lobbying involved with pharmaceutical companies and politics that looks really bad. CDC employees who later get hired on as big players in pharmaceutical companies? How is that not a conflict of interest? Idk what the answer is but I think people have every right to be concerned and worried. The companies aren’t really known for their exemplary ethics and have been sued more than once in relation to vaccines not to mention all the other drugs they also make. I’m sure anyone who has dealt with healthcare knows the system is broken and it doesn’t exclude pharmaceutical companies.

4 Votes
37 minutes ago, kmc89 said:

A lot of it is a distrust for pharmaceutical companies and politics. It’s not just the science people struggle with. Some people would be more apt to vaccinate if they could get single vaccines vs. combined but they are not made in the USA anymore. If they started making them then some ppl would think something must be wrong with the combo shots and still distrust the companies. There is also a lot of money and lobbying involved with pharmaceutical companies and politics that looks really bad. CDC employees who later get hired on as big players in pharmaceutical companies? How is that not a conflict of interest? Idk what the answer is but I think people have every right to be concerned and worried. The companies aren’t really known for their exemplary ethics and have been sued more than once in relation to vaccines not to mention all the other drugs they also make. I’m sure anyone who has dealt with healthcare knows the system is broken and it doesn’t exclude pharmaceutical companies.

maybe this has something to do with it:

Also in 1989, the CDC sponsored a study of 2 different measles vaccines on minority children living in the Los Angeles area. One of the measles vaccines used in the study was an unlicensed, experimental vaccine but the parents of children participating in the study were not made aware of this detail. 34

The experimental vaccine that was used was a high dose measles vaccine aimed at overwhelming the natural maternal antibodies which protect infants from infection during the first year of life. The presence of maternal antibodies at time of vaccination can lead to vaccine failure and the risk of measles infection later in life. While the vaccine had been in use outside of the country, by 1990, a high number of deaths in female children 6 months to 3 years after vaccination had been reported. 35

and so very timely for the NCVIA to have been signed in just a few years before experiments using measles vaccines on impoverished children...the US doesn’t exactly have a track record of transparency when it comes to biological warfare and experimental science on poor populations.

The National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act(NCVIA) of 1986 (42 U.S.C. §§ 300aa-1 to 300aa-34) was signed into law by United States President Ronald Reagan as part of a larger health bill on Nov 14, 1986. NCVIA's purpose was to eliminate the potential financial liability of vaccine manufacturers due to vaccine injury claims[1] in order to ensure a stable market supply of vaccines, and to provide cost-effective arbitration for vaccine injury claims.[2]Under the NCVIA, the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (NVICP) was created to provide a federal no-fault system for compensating vaccine-related injuries or death by establishing a claim procedure involving the United States Court of Federal Claims and special masters.[1][3]

1 Votes
Specializes in Public Health, TB.

I highly doubt that parents today are aware of a study done 30 years ago. The particular vaccine in question had been used in other countries and determined to be safe. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S014067368892781X

No deaths related to the unlicensed vaccine occurred in Los Angeles. In an article from the LA Times, the reason the vaccine was given to minority patients was because that was the population involved in an on-going outbreak.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1996-06-17-mn-15871-story.html

Yes, this was a breach in ethics, and the study authors and CDC have acknowledged it.

Per Terms of Service, you should post a link to your source when you post a direct quote.

5 Votes
On 10/28/2019 at 5:06 PM, nursej22 said:

I highly doubt that parents today are aware of a study done 30 years ago. The particular vaccine in question had been used in other countries and determined to be safe. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S014067368892781X

No deaths related to the unlicensed vaccine occurred in Los Angeles. In an article from the LA Times, the reason the vaccine was given to minority patients was because that was the population involved in an on-going outbreak.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1996-06-17-mn-15871-story.html

Yes, this was a breach in ethics, and the study authors and CDC have acknowledged it.

Per Terms of Service, you should post a link to your source when you post a direct quote.

from the article you quoted:
None of the Los Angeles children, most of whom are now 5, was injured by the unlicensed vaccine, the CDC said. However, similar clinical trials conducted in Africa and Haiti with the vaccine raised questions about its relationship to an increased death rate among female infants who received the more potent of two dosages being studied. Those children died within two years after the vaccination. In light of the questions, the Los Angeles study was halted in 1991.

The inquiry into the measles research was conducted after a physician connected to a public-interest vaccine safety group raised questions. Satcher, who was not CDC director at the time the study began, said he concluded from his review that “there was no ill intent” on the part of the agency in not telling parents that the vaccine had not been licensed for use in the United States, which is why it is termed “experimental” in this country.

“But things sometimes fall through the cracks,” he said.

CDC officials acknowledged that the omission was serious and attributed it to researchers’ knowledge that the lesser doses of the unlicensed vaccine, known as Edmonston-Zagreb, or E-Z, had been used safely for decades outside the United States and that it had been recommended by the World Health Organization.

Children did die, just not in LA, and the breach in ethics is cause for concern. Justifying a breech such as that because “you have to study the area where the disease is occurring” is like excusing human experimentation on HIV infected populations and allowing them to spread HIV in order to “study the area where the disease is occurring.”
The study you linked is from 1988. there are several follow up studies from 1990 onward linking higher mortality rates, diarrheal infection and visits to health clinics specifically for female children who had received the EZ measles vaccine in Guinea and Senegal:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/1681265/

The relative risk of death was 1.80 (95% confidence interval [CI] 1.18-2.74; p = 0.007) in the EZ-HT group and 1.51 (0.97-2.34; p = 0.07) in the SW-HT group compared with the standard group. The three vaccine groups were comparable as regards various social, family, and health characteristics, and there was no difference in mortality between children who received the standard vaccine and those who were eligible for the trial but did not take part for various reasons. The higher risk of death in the two high-titre vaccine groups remained significant in multivariate analyses. These findings suggest a need to reconsider the use of high-titre measles vaccines early in life in less developed countries.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/8501567/

Girls in the EZ group had significantly higher mortality rates than girls in the control group (mortality ratio = 1.95; range, 1.07 to 3.56; p = 0.027); there was no difference for the boys (mortality ratio = 0.98; range, 0.41 to 2.30). Adjustment for background factors in a Cox regression model did not modify these estimates. Furthermore, female recipients of EZ vaccine had more days with diarrhea (relative risk = 1.35; range, 1.17 to 1.56; p = 0.00003) and were more likely than control subjects to visit a health center in the month after vaccination (relative risk = 1.86; range, 1.05 to 3.31; p = 0.027); those who consulted were more likely to die subsequently (mortality ratio = 2.31; range, 0.99 to 5.41; p = 0.054). These observations were unplanned and require confirmation in larger studies.

it is important to note that these vaccines were given internationally under USAID, a US development agency.

2 Votes
Specializes in Public Health, TB.
On 10/28/2019 at 5:44 PM, seraphimid said:

CDC officials acknowledged that the omission was serious and attributed it to researchers’ knowledge that the lesser doses of the unlicensed vaccine, known as Edmonston-Zagreb, or E-Z, had been used safely for decades outside the United States and that it had been recommended by the World Health Organization.... the breech in ethics is cause for concern. Justifying a breech such as that because “you have to study the area where the disease is occurring” is like excusing human experimentation on HIV infected populations and allowing them to spread HIV in order to “study the area where the disease is occurring.”


The breach in ethics was not about the population that was vaccinated, it was because the study participants were not informed that the vaccine and dose was not licensed in the USA.

The study you linked is from 1988. there are several follow up studies from 1990 onward linking higher mortality rates, diarrheal infection and visits to health clinics specifically for female children who had received the EZ measles vaccine in Guinea and Senegal:

Yes, but the study you cited was carried out in 1989, there for the researchers did not yet have results from 1990.

it is important to note that these vaccines were given internationally under USAID, a US development agency.

Yes, how dare they try to find an effective vaccine to protect infants from a deadly disease.

3 Votes
On 10/28/2019 at 7:11 PM, nursej22 said:

Child mortality after high-titre measles vaccines: prospective study in Senegal.

Randomized controlled trial

Garenne M, et al. Lancet. 1991.

Long-term survival after Edmonston-Zagreb measles vaccination in Guinea-Bissau: increased female mortality rate.

Randomized controlled trial

Aaby P, et al. J Pediatr. 1993.

I don’t understand the point you are trying to make other than an attempt at obfuscating a breech of consent and excusing it because the CDC officials “apologized” and disregarding the studies that show an increase in mortality rates from the measles EZ vaccine. Let me hurt someone and apologize, let’s see how far that goes. Your relentless apologist approach for such “falling through the cracks” behavior shows you have a very low standard to which you hold an institution that dictates the health and well being of billions of people across the globe.

2 Votes
Specializes in Public Health, TB.
On 10/28/2019 at 7:28 PM, seraphimid said:

I don’t understand the point you are trying to make other than an attempt at obfuscating a breech of consent and excusing it because the CDC officials “apologized” and disregarding the studies that show an increase in mortality rates from the measles EZ vaccine. Let me hurt someone and apologize, let’s see how far that goes. Your relentless apologist approach for such “falling through the cracks” behavior shows you have a very low standard to which you hold an institution that dictates the health and well being of billions of people across the globe.

I did not excuse this behavior. They clearly made a mistake. Where did I apologize?

You have no idea about what standard I hold an institution. Are you talking about the USAID? I am only able to see abstracts from articles about use of the EZ vaccine in Africa and Haiti, so I have no idea who funded it other than your declaration.

From my brief perusal of abstracts it appears that there were several promising studies showing the effectiveness of higher dose EZ, before the realization that there was an increased rate in mortality in females. The goal overall, was to decrease mortality in children thought to be too young to receive measles vaccine. After small promising trials, increased mortality caused a halt to the studies.

Sometimes with the best intentions, there are adverse outcomes. Such as parents who did not vaccinate in the Philippines and then lost their children in the 2019 measles outbreak.

2 Votes

If there is one thing USAID knows how to do right - since it seems to have gotten the measles vaccine wrong - it is covert operations. It’s also pretty well known that it was a CIA front during the Cold War until it took on a “humanitarian” stance and decided imperialist medicine was better for the press than coups and regime change wars.

https://www.democracynow.org/2014/4/4/is_usaid_the_new_cia_agency

“In a number of countries, including Venezuela and Bolivia, USAID is acting more as an agency involved in covert action, like the CIA, than as an aid or development agency.” —Mark Weisbrot, Center for Economic and Policy Research

Last week, we learned from the Associated Press that USAID (United States Agency for International Development) — the government agency which manages billions in overseas “humanitarian” aid programs — plotted to overthrow Cuba’s communist regime via a covertly-funded fake Twitter platform.

The idea was to get Cuba’s youth to sign up for ZunZuneo (Cuban slang for the sound hummingbirds make—get it?) without anyone knowing about USAID’s involvement, get the kids hooked on pointless tweeting, collect all sorts of data on the users, and then rile them into an anti-regime rage — a “Cuban Spring” revolution.

Isn’t it the least bit suspicious that agencies involved in regime change operations are also the ones funding vaccination protocols in third world countries?

1 Votes
On 10/22/2019 at 10:12 PM, SNJ_nurse said:

Honestly, its not as simple as so many people make it seem. Its too bad that like the poster said, its such a "hot topic" that theres no discussion to be had. Many nurses love to just spit out facts that their teachers told them and arent open to any conversation. This is the opposite, in my opinion, of what nursing should be about.

There are many many concerns and blindly pushing vaccines is dangerous. Please note, I am PRO- Vaccines and they are a wonderful thing.

For example, their scheduling. You still get herd immunity if a child gets it at age 4, rather than 8 months. Are you giving the infant a chance to develop ANY innate immunity? Yet, we are pushing Hep B vaccines on infants? Funny stuff.

Flu vaccine, dont even get me started. Complete money-grab.

Even for the "more serious ones" like polio and MMR, there are arguments to be made.

What it comes down to is that the medical community has lost (probably rightfully so) the trust of the general population, and vaccines are just a trigger point for it.

I think you are referring to “adaptive immunity.” Just FYI.

0 Votes
Specializes in Public Health, TB.
15 hours ago, seraphimid said:

Last week, we learned from the Associated Press that USAID (United States Agency for International Development) — the government agency which manages billions in overseas “humanitarian” aid programs — plotted to overthrow Cuba’s communist regime via a covertly-funded fake Twitter platform.

The idea was to get Cuba’s youth to sign up for ZunZuneo (Cuban slang for the sound hummingbirds make—get it?) without anyone knowing about USAID’s involvement, get the kids hooked on pointless tweeting, collect all sorts of data on the users, and then rile them into an anti-regime rage — a “Cuban Spring” revolution.

You have jumped from citing 15 year old studies to bringing up a 30 year old terrible vaccine trial to claiming USAID is attempting regime change in Cuba. I guess if one can't intelligently support one argument, one just throws a whole bucketful against the wall and see what sticks.

2 Votes

Ford Pinto. Therefore all cars are bad and are a government conspiracy with Big Auto to steal your hard earned money.

2 Votes
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