I am sure many people have heard of the social issue/ cause "school to prison pipeline" that many civic groups are trying to eradicate. I am here to draw attention to a similar related problem , the college to welfare pipeline.
Due to an intricate , intimate, and covert relationship between big government politicos, higher education, Bureau of Occupational affairs, and the Federal/ State Department of labor, we have a serious student debt problem in the nursing field that is only going to get worse. Nurses need to wake up and take note of the LPN to RN hoax, and the RN-BSN hoax. These are all well publicized , propaganda driven falsities that are crushing nurses into debt driven higher education requirements. These propaganda driven requirements brainwash nurses into believing that without the extra education, they will not be employed.
And to a certain degree, they are correct, but its important for nurses to see the pitfall, before taking the dive. There is little to no difference in responsibility or pay rate from LPN to RN, and most RNs are taking the lower wage, just to have a job. There is zero difference in job responsibility or pay from RN to BSN, but the dollars spent to get there are substantial. The RN to BSN pipeline is a grotesque narrative that is being sung, for the sole purpose of enriching nursing schools. The NCLEX exam is identical for RNs and BSNs, the scope of practice is identical, and so are all the pay rates. A staff nurse is a staff nurse, is a staff nurse, too.
So why go for your BSN? Its because the hospitals and other various 24/ 7 institutional care providers say so. They have all built a united wall against the ADN RN. We are becoming an extinct species, because no one will hire us. Is the BSN a job guarantee? Of course not. Is any higher education a job guarantee? Nope. Big government politicos want student debt to skyrocket , so that they can fly in and save everyone with free bailouts, loan forgiveness, and thousands of more votes on election day.
May the buyer beware, until that utopia comes to fruition. In the meantime, take a serious look inward into the pitfalls, tricks and traps of higher education in the nursing field. The powers that be want you to keep jumping hurdles , spending more and more money, hoping to get hired, and falling deeper and deeper into debt, during the process. The higher you jump, the more you spend, and the less you earn. For many nurses who fell for these schemes, the financial devastation has been both swift and severe.
I will say that I dont agree with nurses being able to enroll in a NP program shortly after graduating nor should they be able to do it online at places like U of Phoenix. But, its big money for schools so of course they push it. We weren't even graduated yet and we already had people from grad programs speaking to us.
I did a graduate entry and while my specialty (Neonatal) had a work requirement between RN and MSN, other specialties didn't. It's not as big of an issue as you might think, and it helps with role transition. But time management, workflow, assessments etc are all different as an NP.
I graduated in 1991, an ADN with a bachelor's in another field.
Good nursing jobs have always been hard to find. Even at the height of any shortage.
I had my share of total nonsense. I fought my way up from the very bottom.
BSN never paid any more, it simply made you eligible for a somewhat better job.
NP never was guaranteed to pay enough more that it was worth doing, considering the cost of the education.
I hear people's frustration, but all of this is nothing at all new.
I know people who have been NP's for 15 years and they are still very deep in debt. But they borrowed money for living expenses while they went to school full time.
I don't have an answer. I think there is luck at play, and random factors.
Your attitude makes a difference.
I am a person who could not relocate, and I drove 2 hours each way to graduate school before online existed.
I did what I had to do. This was 15 and 20 years ago.
Why exactly do you seem annoyed by MY path? My education plan is mine to worry about but I’m glad you are happy for me. I was just sharing that it’s not all doom and gloom.
Come to Western PA....we all had jobs upon graduation. No contacts for me. Just a good gpa and hard work and a great interview. I was hired in December for an April graduation. In a specialty to boot....
I am going to have to chime in and agree with JenPripsu in some aspects---but I will disagree in others.
If he/she had a job prior to graduation--that is not only possible, but it happens every day in some of the ADN programs in the south.
Before anyone goes patting themselves on the back "too hard" for their skill as a -1 year experience nurse--the hospitals do this (at least in the south this is how it goes) in cahoots with the instructors. They bring in RN managers from "all specialties" claiming that any student will be considered for any specialty, just bring your resume. They even provide lunch.
There is the hard sell. All day long--the nurses rave about where they work and why the students need to choose their facility/system. Then it's "line up, give us your resumes and you'll get 5 minutes with YOUR CHOICE of specialty!"
When the line starts for ---ICU or ED or Cath Lab or PACU---those nurse managers need to "be back at the hospital right away" BUT THEY HAVE YOUR RESUME ? And who are you stuck talking with? Med Surg. LTC floors. The students don't know better and they think---well, I can "get my foot in the door" with Med Surg and then transfer around! And the RN Mgrs feeeeeeeeeeeeed this delusion.
The starting salaries are also not published here---it's the lowest rung for -1 year nurses. You start out at (in some areas...) $18/hr. In the South it was collusion between all of the big systems to lock in one rate. $21/hr. You can't go anywhere else because there is nowhere to go without pulling up stakes.
Then you start your long slog. The requirement of the BSN. Within---4 years at some, 7 at others. "WE'LL HELP YOU!" Yeah. Uh huh. They'll pay for ONE CLASS PER YEAR, after you already front the money---and they tax the reimbursement.
It's all a recruitment tool to acquire the cheapest, youngest, most inexperienced workers so that they can exploit the best years of their lives....and keep costs to a minimum.
7 years goes by and any somewhat observant nurse will notice that they're not really going to get anywhere with that BSN---no compensation for that degree, no real additional opportunities (because the goalposts get magically moved! Now the requirement for that CN3 position is an MSN with 10 years of CRITICAL CARE experience! for a job in Endoscopy.)---and the "ability to transfer between specialties"? PIPEDREAM.
Did anyone know that "Magnet Status" and JHACO are all VOLUNTARY for hospitals to be a part of? These entities have zero teeth when it comes to actual enforcement of any of their "recommendations".
It's a club. Just like the schools, facilities and yes...the insurers...because they all have bottom lines and portfolios to keep in the black---they push these agendas and simply continue to move the goalposts until YOU decide that you've caught on and aren't playing anymore.
Unfortunately....there's a lineup of 22yo students, being bamboozled in their senior year of "critical care" being told that their lifelong dream of being a badass trauma nurse is about to come true....but you have to jump through just this one hoop first.
When you get into nursing---then the real bulls#t starts. You want that $.25 raise? Did you read 25 scholarly articles, publish with 7 periodicals, do at least 5 unit based projects, volunteer your time feeding seniors' goldfish, never actually took a vacation or a day off?
Oh. You did all that? Well---you weren't "collegiate" enough. You aren't really that well liked amongst the cliquey crowd (because you're really spending so much of your waking life doing PROJECTS for the "unit"). You didn't "help out enough " (where is the metric for this?)
There are always hairs that can be split to keep you right in your place. Low paid, overworked---and if you DARE to open your mouth---you KNOW you will never get anywhere.
Travelers have it alot easier. We aren't required to have a BSN, although I do. I also have a BS in another field---and I am---as we speak---in the hiring/background process of returning to that field. I cannot wait. I will never look back. And I get >50 emails per day from "recruiters" willing to buy me lunch---I was flown to a facility 3000 miles away, put up in a great hotel/spa for 2 days, given a rental car---
and if anybody is curious about that Cath Lab job--and what they straight faced told me was going to be required (because OUR nurses have never had a problem with it!)---I'll rewrite it in another response.
The BSN idea was the brainchild of an paper that SUGGESTED---among other things, but those were ignored--that "errors in the OR may be decreased when the staff is BSN trained".
The insurers, facilities, schools and other money making enterprises glommed onto this and RAN with it.
The "ANA" , the AACN and other "authorities" that "credential" nurses have also jumped on this bandwagon in order to monetize EVERYTHING. Fear is a huge motivator.
You want a job? You do what we tell you to do--you spend money you don't have, for jobs that may or may not exist, for potential that is used as a carrot as a recruitment/retention tool....because....you are trapped in the debt cycle that you are in....because you want a job.
I have worked in many facilities. The only advancement I ever saw among colleagues was when that colleague was so far up the orifice of those above them---and they were willing to sell their soul (spying, tattling, sabotaging, bullying) in order to get ahead. Some had the education yes. But I saw a magnificentyoung man at a Level 1 trauma center--I would have thrown myself in front of a bus to make sure his shifts went smoothly because he was a LEADER.
He worked his orifice off, did the education all the way to MSN. Did the projects. Was on the committees. But he wouldn't do one thing. He wouldn't socialize outside of work with these partiers in management. He was a family man.
He was more than qualified to do a CN4 job--which translated into "Supervisor"--right above shift charge. He applied for this job and was told "you have done everything we required....but.....we think that your 'quality' of Charge experience (at this hospital) is not really....uh......quality enough."
They bamboozled him into doing a horrible thing. They couldn't cover the night shift Charge position---and they promised him---you go from days to nights and do that job for a year---and we'll give you the CN4 position.
He did.
They didn't. They pulled the rug right out from under him. Bald faced and unapologetic.
That's when this young man took his considerable talent and leadership===and told them to shove it up their collective behinds. We all cheered him on. And most of us LEFT that facility soon afterwards.
This is a club. You aren't in it. The ones in it---lock it up jealously because they aren't about to allow "just anybody" in.
If you go to work and just do your job? Be prepared to go nowhere and be the first to get replaced or forced out.
This is the state of nursing.
I disagree wholeheartedly that "all professions" are like this. They're not. I am living breathing proof that they're not. I am mid life---haven't done my previous work in years (I did it as a PRN last time in 2014)---but I was smart enough to keep my certifications and CEUs up to date. I make MORE THAN I DO AS A NURSE, in my previous profession.
Starting salary for a new grad nurse is around $42K before taxes. My starting salary in my former profession is $55K. Raises are merit based. Hard facts? Raise. More education? Raise. Certifications? Raise. There is no "You need to perform, to our board of 5 super secret panel members' satisfaction, the 45 dimensions of our opinion of what a good nurse really ought to be."
I make six figures as a travel nurse but there are tax repercussions and pitfalls to that, plus you're going into the most toxic environments you've never even dreamed possible. I think it's so fricking worth it to leave this garbage behind and take the job I am being offered at $92K---living near my family---in a decently priced mid sized city---and never....EVER having to write one more 15 page "justification" for the facility allowing me to darken their doorstep.
If you have debt---I feel badly. I did schooling on the cheap. I didn't fall for the "YOU HAVE TO HAVE MAJOR SCHOOL THAT COSTS MORE THAN AN ISLAND IN THE CARRIBEAN ON YOUR TRANSCRIPT or you can't be a decent nurse". I am not competitive that way. Which is why facilities don't like "older, more experienced"---they want young, inexperienced and easily manipulated---they like it that it will take you years to catch on. Years that they will use to break you.
The RN-BSN enhancement degree is a worthless and nonsensical phenomenon that is battering nurses both financially and emotionally nation-wide, at the same time. More people need to talk about this problem. I get that the BSN is the new entry level, but the 5, 10, 20, 30 year ADNs should absolutely be grandfathered rather than forced under threat of termination. Its workplace ageism, and a way to drop kick the older nurses out of the workforce, for a younger cheaper population of staff nurses. If I could afford a nation wide call to action, class action lawsuit, I would. I have also seen and heard of hospitals promising tuition assistance, yet when push comes to shove, it never materializes, causing even more financial destruction for the nurse.
I would rather spend money on a carpentry/ plumbing/electrical/welding/ or flooring class, than spend a single nickel on this aggravating farce. At least with a certification in those trades, there are ACTUAL jobs to be had... so for me, its SNF, home care, or a job outside nursing.
THIS is where the idea that "BSN nurses are better trained" came from...
And, of course, co-opted upper nursing administration --you think they're above being in collusion with schools, employers and insurers?
Take a look at how many of those upper admin nurses are on the board of for profit schools, or are "adjunct" professors of nursing programs. THEY ARE PAID to push this agenda.
When I did my BSN, I was bitter like this--inside---but I never, not once---ever let on that my feelings were that this was absolute GARBAGE and would never really serve to get me anything but what I already had worked to get. If I did---like some in my program did---you QUICKLY get labeled as a "do not hire this person".
This is how it works from the day you set foot in nursing school. This isn't about skill. Or education. It's about who will or will not toe/tow the company line. You step out of it? You are not going anywhere.
OP...I think you are a Dialysis nurse? You had some trouble getting out of dialysis and you have a lot of experience/education/certification/direct patient care? But you speak out. You probably may have said a few things that paint a big 'ol target on your back---because you aren't saying and doing "the right things".
I kept my mouth zipped so tightly---that people didn't even know me in my class. I did my work and graduated. Then I sang the praises from the rooftops about my former instructors and their program. I kissed more orifice and it made me absolutely SICK.
Guess what. It works. This is what they want. They don't care about "talent" or "skill". They care about how good you make them feel---and their power over you to make you do what they want you to do.
What's it worth to you? I have seen nurse who mucked up their former job by being a true advocate for sensibility and patient care---and were kicked in the teeth over it. They pulled up stakes---moved somewhere out of the reach of the facility where they used to work---used either friends or fake references---and learned to keep their head down and just do what the new facility tells them to do. Kiss some rear--wash the boss' car, babysit their kids (true story), commit every waking hour to volunteering for the boss. And do it with a smile. Oh. And bring lots of goodies.
There are more than a few I know who did this--and they returned to the same area where they couldn't find a job a couple years prior---and all of a sudden they are "hireable" again.
The reason for these expensive "you pay us just $499 for this conference and all your dreams will come true!" The conference itself is crap. It's the payment you have to make in order to get facetime with certain people.
It's pay to play and if you don't do it---well---prepare to dig in for the long haul of insecurity.
I was told very bluntly that even though I have dual degrees, ER/ICU/Burns/Trauma experience---if I just come to work to do my job? They are going to find a way to "scoot me out". I turned to travel work--and it worked for me. The only reason that travel companies would require a BSN from you?
It's because the facility that uses the company that provides the travelers are "interviewing" you. If you don't have the BSN, that may mean if you are a good nurse and they want you? They'll have to fork out to help you with their "requirement" of BSN.
Which is why facilities don't like "older, more experienced"---they want young, inexperienced and easily manipulated---they like it that it will take you years to catch on. Years that they will use to break you.
The entire post...expert level perfect, and so happy to see someone who gets it, and is willing to put it out there, as it is, political correctness be damned. I do not think I could have said it any better. The hospitals are hiring the brand new BSNs who will work cheap, keep their mouths shut, do as they are told, and NEVER upset the apple cart. 20 years ago, I too, was one of those little bo-peeps, but as an ADN.
I am also trying to go back to my first profession, 20 years later be damned, its hard to do, but I am not giving up. Nursing has become physically, financially and emotionally impossible, and not worth the pittance of pay you get for the mountain of stress you endure.
OP...I think you are a Dialysis nurse? You had some trouble getting out of dialysis and you have a lot of experience/education/certification/direct patient care? But you speak out. You probably may have said a few things that paint a big 'ol target on your back---because you aren't saying and doing "the right things".
No, never a Dialysis Nurse, strange enough, I applied for some of those jobs ...and of course here comes the baseball bat up the orifice....drumroll....."You are not qualified, because you lack a CCRN." Alrighty then. Next. I have continually refused to spend even one more dollar on all of this nonsense, because each cert that you do acquire expires in a couple years anyway, and jobs basically vanish without explanation even quicker than that. Not. worth. the $$$.
Went to a job fair, just for shats and giggles, at one of the "BSN required" LTC corporations near me. There was a mob of unemployed nurses packing the place full. I was told not to even bother filling out the attendance contact sheet, because I am not a "BSN" or "enrolled" so I would not be considered.
This is a place who holds these bogus, fake , degrading and nonsensical job fairs, every 2 months like clockwork, when they have no jobs. I think they enjoy seeing desperate nurses gathering like a circa 1929 bread line looking for a job, and for no other reason.
No, never a Dialysis Nurse, strange enough, I applied for some of those jobs ...and of course here comes the baseball bat up the orifice....drumroll....."You are not qualified, because you lack a CCRN."
New grads from my ADN program got hired to outpatient dialysis centers within a month of taking NCLEX and I live in a very large metro area... are you looking at acute dialysis or outpatient? There are chain dialysis centers that hire ADNs without any cert (or experience, even) and they're definitely in PA...
edit: not to minimize the struggle you're in, I'm sure I'm only making suggestions you've already tried. I only know the job search in my location (large metro in northeast) and Florida. Oddly, I've had more luck up here with both degrees.
New grads from my ADN program got hired to outpatient dialysis centers within a month of taking NCLEX and I live in a very large metro area... are you looking at acute dialysis or outpatient? There are chain dialysis centers that hire ADNs without any cert (or experience, even) and they're definitely in PA...
Outpatient, and no, no job for me. Applied with 10 years experience, and again after several more years. (DaVita and Fresenius) both, a no-go. There is always someone cheaper, and younger. Since I have a BS and an MA in other fields, I am seen as a threat to the insecure, job fearing nurses in charge of hiring.
10 years experience, and again after several more years....I have a BS and an MA in other fields...
Ageism is REAL in nursing, and I'm probably only making another suggestion you've already tried- but maybe pare down on your resume and remove some experience, remove unrelated degrees, and present yourself like what they're looking for. Take the dates off your degrees if you want to keep them on. Get your foot in the door for an interview and wow them there, if you get the call. Don't answer questions about "salary requirements" or just type zeros. That's a conversation that should be had after you interview, not before they call you. I'm not sure how it is in PA, but my city doesn't allow potential employers to ask salary info anymore. Just a thought!
Ageism is REAL in nursing, and I'm probably only making another suggestion you've already tried- but maybe pare down on your resume and remove some experience, remove unrelated degrees, and present yourself like what they're looking for. Take the dates off your degrees if you want to keep them on. Get your foot in the door for an interview and wow them there, if you get the call. Don't answer questions about "salary requirements" or just type zeros. That's a conversation that should be had after you interview, not before they call you. I'm not sure how it is in PA, but my city doesn't allow potential employers to ask salary info anymore. Just a thought!
I have done that, and simplified my resume (very recently) for just industry specific employment. I think it looks much nicer, less crowded, less complicated, and removes the nose in the air, holier than thou, propensity to criticize my many jobs, by chalking me up to a job hopper. I have had to extend dates on some, remove other jobs that lasted less than a few months, and basically just list one employer per sub-specialty (LTC, med surg, ASC, homecare, Case Mgr)
I find this thread interesting. I have huge respect for education and one of my biggest regrets is that I didn't go to nursing school when I was younger. Looking up from the bottom rung of the ladder, it all looks impressive to me. However, I can see how there are times when the cost of schooling and wages lost while in school just don't add up to a profitable decision. I think that one's current career, salary and age also weigh into it. Are there another working years for the education to pay for itself and raise the standard of living? And will nursing itself be a good fit, with the demands on both body and mind, stress and huge responsibility? The posts by the new grads make me nervous about being a nurse- it sounds like a huge learning curve and lots of pressure. I can't imagine the disappointment and emotional & financial cost of leaving a lucrative, comfortable career, getting into huge debt and then either not finding a job- or the job one was led to believe they would get- or being absolutely tried and/or hating being a nurse.
In my case, going for my LPN at age 50 is well worth it. I have a background in basic health care, and my current job is very low paying so there's really nowhere to go but up. I own rental property which means I can afford to work less while in school. I'm used to lifting/turning residents, being on my feet for many hours, dealing with irate and unreasonable people, and working holidays. I enjoy hard work, am physically strong, and love taking care of others. LTC is what I enjoy, getting to know my residents- hospital jobs are exciting and I admire the nurses there, but I don't think it's for me. Yet many people tell me I should go straight to being an RN. I won't gaurantee that I'll never go for my RN, but I very well may be happy to be an LPN for the rest of my 15-20 working years. My LPN will also pay for itself in 5 years, including lost wages from cutting my hours in half while in school.
I must add that I think the cost of education and the predatory schools are a disgrace. It's a very tough world to live in, when trying to get an education for a career to make a livable wage puts so many people in enormous debt.
Ageism is REAL in nursing, and I'm probably only making another suggestion you've already tried- but maybe pare down on your resume and remove some experience, remove unrelated degrees, and present yourself like what they're looking for. Take the dates off your degrees if you want to keep them on. Get your foot in the door for an interview and wow them there, if you get the call. Don't answer questions about "salary requirements" or just type zeros. That's a conversation that should be had after you interview, not before they call you. I'm not sure how it is in PA, but my city doesn't allow potential employers to ask salary info anymore. Just a thought!
THIS.
When I placed all of my previous medical experience on my resume---the big name I worked for and all of the highly skilled and certified titles I held on my resume---right behind my return to school for nursing and my Level 1 ER years?
CRICKETS. I mean....not. one. bite. I thought---geezus! What the hell did I do? I hired an outside consulting service to call all of my former employers. Glowing references. Can be rehired at all of them. No DUIs, no "quit or be fired", no issues with credentialing...
Ahhhhhh. Then the consulting firm told me---delete all of your life before nursing school.
Made me appear years younger and much, much more inexperienced.
I was deluged with offers. Oftentimes the interview was over the phone. Facilities are learning now to do the facetime or pre-recorded interviews---because of applicants like me---who are older and have "tailored" their resumes---as it's illegal to ask your age or even know your birthdate prior. I don't look my age, but I do look late 30s maybe early 40s.
What I especially love to do? I mean...it makes me warm and fuzzy inside all day long---and for the entire length of either the commitment or the contract? Watch their face when I show up in person after acing the phone interview--and it takes them a few weeks to "angle" a way to get someone to ask me..."Just how old are you??" And I tell them.
Absolutely priceless.
One of my most recent jobs was like this. They interviewed over the phone and I was immediately offered. I showed up and I wish to heaven I'd have had a camera for how this RN Mgr's face looked. Then the push was on. Find out how old she is. (as if it matters at that point but it would if i turned out to be as badass as they had originally believed...and they could use my age to not hire me) Then when they found out that I could teach their senior staff about aspects of medicine that I was an expert in prior to nursing??
LOL! I loved it. It was awesome to watch....and just a confirmation to me that this is NOT ABOUT SKILL OR EDUCATION OR QUALITY PATIENT CARE.
This is about money. This is about recruitment and retention of the cheapest, youngest and most maleable personnel possible.
Delete your former experience in ANYTHING but nursing. Yes...place under "education" the degrees if you think they won't hurt you---but most of the time, they will. It cuts years off of your age, and defuses the "threat assessment" that RN Mgrs are trained to use.
Once I got into a particular hospital system that I liked---surprise y'all!!---I can do this other thing and am highly qualified at that. And I parlayed all of that same deception that hospitals use to recruit and retain nurses....to secure a nice gig doing a job where if you disrespect me? You're out of the department escorted by security. You hit me? You will never ever be allowed back into that department. I don't clean your orifice, I don't put up with your crazy family, I don't live my life to satisfy CMS's "recommendation" that I document every two hours--that your call bell is within reach and your bed is locked and low. Or get fired because i didn't do a pain reassessment within 30 minutes on that life saving tylenol.
I'm lucky. I get that. But the facts don't change as to how the OPs assessment of this racket is very correct.
Call her a malcontent if you like. Maybe she doesn't present herself in the most "likeable" way---but being so afraid of others' opinions of us is precisely what gets most nurses into the pickles that they're in. Nurses are pleasers. Discontent and turbulence disturb nurses who are steeped in the culture of fear---that if you speak out? You're days are numbered.
LilPeanut, MSN, RN, NP
898 Posts
I did a graduate entry and while my specialty (Neonatal) had a work requirement between RN and MSN, other specialties didn't. It's not as big of an issue as you might think, and it helps with role transition. But time management, workflow, assessments etc are all different as an NP.