It used to be that nurses did not have to go to college; we were instead trained by hospitals. Then the education requirement changed and community college replaced hospitals. And now, it is changing to that some hospitals will only hire nurses with college degrees. Undoubtedly, the education requirement will continue to increase in the future.
The downside to this is that it will make this profession harder to get into. And those who are in the profession will constantly need to adapt by going back to school. The upside to this is that it will provide us with more skills to do a better job.
There are people here on both sides of the argument that just refuse to see any other point of view than their own.
How about we let this thread die a natural death?
I think the debate has been rather interesting and lively, revealing a great deal of misconceptions and unique opinions. If you do not feel as though this discussion worthy of your valuable time then I am sure there are more compelling topics elsewhere.
I don't necessarily see a lot of people in and around nursing that feel like more education is a bad thing. The point, at least from my perspective, and I think a few others, is how it has been approached.
BTW Astystole, doesn't Dr. Aiken's study suggest that BSN has to do with clinical practices, thus the concept of mandating it was fueled by her study?
Fiona, I try to see other points of view. I support a baseline BS in nursing. It's a good thing; I just never bought into the hype that it necessarily made a better nurse. I certainly couldn't hurt--have more knowledge--but clinical knowledge is learned with the didactic development over time. When I first started in critical care, I would read all I could about various kinds of cases. I learned from doctors, nurses, Resp. Therapist, you name it. I read all the time. It was my responsibility after graduation to put the didactic with the clinical, regardless of all the critical care courses, or even getting to the point of getting the CCRN.
I think if you can't decide from jump street, in this field, that you are interested in it being one that requires of continuous learning processes, just go hang it up. You have decided to limit yourself as a professional and a clinician. We may feel like waiters or janitors or nannies at times, but we aren't any of those things, b/c much more is required and expected of us; and that is how it should be--especially since we are supposed to be professionals. (No disrespect at all to janitors, nannies, or waiters. Good, honest jobs!)
What I detest is the political gaming and all the throwing of nurses under buses or kicking them unfairly out the door, or to the curb, so to speak. I think the kind of thing I was talking about earlier re: hiring practices is a perfect example about throwing nurses under the bus--as well as kicking them to the curb. The current approach hurts everyone--new nurses, experienced nurses, patients, hospitals, everyone.
What's sad is the reality that so many nurses end up mentally "checking out" or not "showing up." I mean they physically show up, do the minimum (Some sadly don't even do that.), and they just count the days until vacation, their next day off, retirement, whatever. And the cycle continues because of lack of proper mentoring, so even a lot of newer nurses end up following this pattern--and/or, they rely heavily on political gaming to maintain security or get ahead. Come on. All of us who have been nurses long enough have seen it, probably many times. This is the kind of thing that fuels the toxicity and keeps it going.
There are always 1,000 reasons why not to do something, sometimes in order to achieve something you just have to do it.
Nursing cannot bend to the needs of every single "poor me" case and in all reality the future must be designed to better the profession, not to suit the needs of the current economy.
There are actual definitions to what a "profession" is and what it is not, determined by social scientists and the like. A BSN does not make you an automatic "professional." A profession and a professional are two different terms with subtle, but very important, differences.
There is actually a logical reason behind the BSN standard, believe it or not.
Nursing is known as a developing profession and not a true profession, largely due to the varying levels of educational requirements.
I don't give a tinker's damn who you are- if a nurse doesn't have the money for this frivilious expenditure aka BSN tuition- they don't have it. You can't get blood from a stone.
The labeling and talking down to phrase of "poor me" is one of the glaring reasons 'Nursing' will never be "professionalized" it doesn't matter if the entry level is " Doctorate". If the BSN and higher degree nurses is not going to start displaying actions that say they have any knowledge of some of these wonderful "fluff" classes they keep expound they have aquired while sitting through in their BSN programs, then nursing will continue to be so called (LOL) "developing".
There are too many sitting on little pristine pedestles looking down their noses at their fellow nurses with blantant disrregard for the obvious or is that part of this newly minted phrase"professionalization"?
I don't know of any nurse who would forgo the roof over their own and their families head to dump ever paultry cent they have into tuition in this economy When these loud mouth broads who sit in their offices with their $300 suits on, and climb their sweaty behinds into their new cars at the end of their "streneous day"(lol) in the office think tank pay for my tuition-Then maybe the less fortunate sector of this profession will be willing to listen to them. Until them- they are talking to brick walls- because our only focus in this economy is keeping the roof over our families head and food on the table. I think that's called "PRIORITIZING"
Do BSN's actually have to open their books on global economy, sociology, poverty. What is it this group is not getting?? They have to stop spouting of garbage that proves they didn't understand one word presented to them in any of their lectures. Not a good argument for advancing degrees in nursing.
This developing bit has me chuckling- One could also say medicine is "developing" Developing as in third world country- sewer running in the streets, typhoid Mary?? LOL
I don't necessarily see a lot of people in and around nursing that feel like more education is a bad thing. The point, at least from my perspective, and I think a few others, is how it has been approached.
BTW Astystole, doesn't Dr. Aiken's study suggest that BSN has to do with clinical practices, thus the concept of mandating it was fueled by her study?
Fiona, I try to see other points of view. I support a baseline BS in nursing. It's a good thing; I just never bought into the hype that it necessarily made a better nurse. I certainly couldn't hurt--have more knowledge--but clinical knowledge is learned with the didactic development over time. When I first started in critical care, I would read all I could about various kinds of cases. I learned from doctors, nurses, Resp. Therapist, you name it. I read all the time. It was my responsibility after graduation to put the didactic with the clinical, regardless of all the critical care courses, or even getting to the point of getting the CCRN.
I think if you can decide from jump street in this field that you aren't interested in it being a continuous learning process, just go hang it up. You have decided to limit yourself as a professional and a clinician. We may feel like waiters or janitors or nannies at times, but we aren't any of those things, b/c much more is required and expected of us; and that is how it should be.
What I detest is the political gaming and all the throwing of nurses under the bus or kicking the out the door, or to the curb, so to speak. I think the kind of thing I was talking about earlier re: hiring practices is a perfect example about throwing nurses under the bus--as well as kicking them to the curb. The current approach hurts everyone--new nurses, experienced nurses, patients, hospitals, everyone.
What's sad is the reality that so many nurses end up mentally "checking out" or not "showing up." I mean they physically show up, do the minimum (some sadly don't even do that), and they just count the days until vacation, their next day off, retirement, whatever. And the cycle continues because of lack of proper mentoring, so even a lot of your newer nurses end up following this pattern--and/or, they rely heavy on political gaming to maintain security or get ahead. Come on. All of us who have been nurses long enough have seen it, probably many times. This is the kind of thing that fuels the toxicity and keeps it going.
There are some that would argue that higher levels of academic achievement do improve overall clinical abilities but that is not the driving force behind the BSN standard.
Professionalization of an occupation is defined by a set standard of characteristics. Standardizing the entry level of education for the profession has to do with fulfilling some of those characteristics, not necessarily improving clinical practice.
Google "profession" or "characteristics of a profession" and you will see some of the defining features of a profession.
Due to the varying levels education of entry level nursing, nursing has been dubbed a developing profession instead of a true profession.
I don't give a tinker's damn who you are- if a nurse doesn't have the money for this frivilious expenditure aka BSN tuition- they don't have it. You can't get blood from a stone.
The labeling and talking down to phrase of "poor me" is one of the glaring reasons 'Nursing' will never be "professionalized" it doesn't matter if the entry level is " Doctorate". If the BSN and higher degree nurses is not going to start displaying actions that say they have any knowledge of some of these wonderful "fluff" classes they keep expound they have aquired while sitting through in their BSN programs, then nursing will continue to be so called (LOL) "developing".
There are too many sitting on little pristine pedestles looking down their noses at their fellow nurses with blantant disrregard for the obvious or is that part of this newly minted phrase"professionalization"?
I don't know of any nurse who would forgo the roof over their own and their families head to dump ever paultry cent they have into tuition in this economy When these loud mouth broads who sit in their offices with their $300 suits on, and climb their sweaty behinds into their new cars at the end of their "streneous day"(lol) in the office think tank pay for my tuition-Then maybe the less fortunate sector of this profession will be willing to listen to them. Until them- they are talking to brick walls- because our only focus in this economy is keeping the roof over our families head and food on the table. I think that's called "PRIORITIZING"
Do BSN's actually have to open their books on global economy, sociology, poverty. What is it this group is not getting??
This developing bit has me chuckling- One could also say medicine is "developing" Developing as in thrid world country- sewer running in the streets, typhoid Mary?? LOL
Again,
individual professionalism has nothing to do with professionalization of the occupation.
I believe that you are mixing related, but different, concepts.
There are many hospitals in my area that are magnet status. They are requiring all RNs to get their BSN if they don't already have it. All new hires will only be BSN graduates. I'm all for it. Continuing education is something that lends itself to nursing.
I think the debate has been rather interesting and lively, revealing a great deal of misconceptions and unique opinions. If you do not feel as though this discussion worthy of your valuable time then I am sure there are more compelling topics elsewhere.
There are some that would argue that higher levels of academic achievement do improve overall clinical abilities but that is not the driving force behind the BSN standard.
Professionalization of an occupation is defined by a set standard of characteristics. Standardizing the entry level of education for the profession has to do with fulfilling some of those characteristics, not necessarily improving clinical practice.
Google "profession" or "characteristics of a profession" and you will see some of the defining features of a profession.
Due to the varying levels education of entry level nursing, nursing has been dubbed a developing profession instead of a true profession.
I agree with what you say. I just wanted to get your perspective on the Aiken study. :)
There are many hospitals in my area that are magnet status. They are requiring all RNs to get their BSN if they don't already have it. All new hires will only be BSN graduates. I'm all for it. Continuing education is something that lends itself to nursing.
Again, not for it the way they are doing. It's insanity to give new BSN preference over strongly experienced RNs--again, even if they have been out for a while. There are RNs in BSN programs with tons of clinical experience, and they are getting passed over for new BSNs w/o ANY, much less, STRONG clinical experience. If you want to define "strong" experience that is one thing. But for heaven's sake, this kind of "getting passed over" deal is primarily about politics and money. Really it's shameful, and I am not going to re-hash it all in this thread.
But I will share that I stated employers could state that RN candidates for jobs be matriculated and well-established within a BSN program, etc, along with having very strong experience--this should be what is top tier for employment.
Again, they need to start changing community college programs, so that students go there for pre-nursing sciences and such, so that their students can move to a university-based BSN program. Finally, they need to give people a ten year time frame in which to complete the degree. It really isn't that hard. If people, however, have extenuating circumstances within the time period, so long as these can be verified, grant them more time. Again, not a huge deal.
Also, how is it a fiance killer to take one or two courses toward the BSN per year? In fact, that's way too slow in my opinion, but whatever. If you need about 20 courses, divide that over 4 years. What's that equal? It = 5 courses per year. Come on. That is doable, unless you have some seriously extenuating circumstances, like your poor child has a horrible disease, etc.
What all states should do is allow RNs to use these courses toward their continuous education for license renewal. I think some states do and some don't. Not sure.
If you have no desire for any of the grads school programs, you don't have to break your butt to try to maintain a 4.0.
It's when you are aiming for highly competitive programs that require you to be as close to 4.0 as possible and really decent grad test scores, all while you are going to school w/ numerous responsibilities, family, and work--that's when when this can be a bit of a pain. If you don't have to worry about that, however, really a 3.0 is pretty achievable and will still get you into most nursing or social science grad programs.
Asystole RN
2,352 Posts
I think the debate has been rather interesting and lively, revealing a great deal of misconceptions and unique opinions. If you do not feel as though this discussion worthy of your valuable time then I am sure there are more compelling topics elsewhere.
:bowingpur