Students with No Teachers

calliesue · May 16, 2008

I am glad that people can still go to nursing school. I just wonder how much they are paying these retired mds as opposed to how much they are paying nursing instructors.

Any idea?

I do think the hospital idea was pretty cool.

scribblerpnp · May 16, 2008

I haven't read the article, but surely there is someone out there who finds this a little strange. Is it in the best interest of the students to have physicians teaching nursing courses? I'm fine if they want to teach non-nursing, but of they are teaching nursing courses, how is a nursing student supposed to learn how to be a nurse? Are physcian's that up with the nursing process and nursing diagnosis? I think less enrollment with actual nursing faculty would be better than too much too fast.

The problem isn't with the amount of nurses, it is with the amount of nurses willing to work in hospitals.

elkpark · May 16, 2008

I can see maybe teaching physical assessment skills (since those are the same whoever's doing them), but I would hate to see physicians teaching nursing students. It wouldn't be allowed under the current BON rules in my state, and I would hope those rules wouldn't be changed (I'm sure the NLNAC, CCNE, and AACN would have a few choice words, also!) Nursing students should be taught nursing by qualified nurses.

Home Health Columnist / Guide · May 16, 2008

makes perfect business sense ....glad the retired rn's off doing something else they love rather than working for peanuts.

five minute consult

[color=#cc6633]starck: we don't have a nursing faculty shortage. we have a shortage of qualified nurses who are willing to work for faculty salaries when the hospitals are paying so well. the rpo is an excellent source of the type of faculty that we want: those who are wise, experienced, eager to help students, and very committed.
the physicians teach in the physical assessment lab. students are taught to do a head-to-toe physical exam and take a history. the physicians are there to help them do the exam correctly. we also use ipods for the lectures and a lot of video. from their very first semester, students are having dialogue with physicians. they are learning to communicate, and they are learning not to be intimidated. they learn the information a physician wants if they need to call a physician in the middle of the night. we think that's one of the best aspects of the program-this interdisciplinary education

elkpark · May 16, 2008

Lots of things make business sense, but aren't necessarily a good idea for other reasons.

My father, for example, is a retired physician who is "wise, experienced, eager to help students, and very committed." He would be very interested in participating in a program like that. However, he also believes that nurses, like small children, should be "seen and not heard" -- that they don't need to know or think about anything on their own because their job is to follow the physician's orders without question. His attitude about this is fairly subtle -- he doesn't announce this to you when he walks into the room; it takes time and experience to realize that that's his view and it's not going to change. Is that someone we want teaching nursing students about interdisciplinary communication and working with other professionals? I know that's just one example, but I grew up around many physicians who are now "retired physicians" and that's a very common attitude in that demographic group. Is that an attitude we want conveyed in the nursing school classroom to impressionable students?

Trauma Columnist · May 16, 2008

What about paying MSN and doctorate educated nurses a competitive wage. I would love to teach but can't take the pay cut.

Love_2_Learn · May 17, 2008

Of course it was many, many years ago, but when my Aunt Sara was in nursing school it was in a hospital and all their class instructors were physicians. It was a diploma program because at that time nursing was not taught in colleges. She graduated in 1941...! I don't know about who did their teaching in the hospitals themselves but I remember her saying that the more senior nurses (the ones in their 3rd and last year) would help the first and second year students. I believe they went to classes in the mornings and worked in the hospital the rest of the day and evening. They worked regular shifts so by the time they graduated they were quite ready to work well. My sweet aunt's claim to fame is that she administered the first penicillin injection given in the state of Georgia. She said there was a special book that they recorded the injections in and it was hand carried to the state capitol for safe keeping after it was full of entries.

Most certainly nursing has come a gazillion miles since then and we live in a whole new world. I suppose my post is just for a little history of physicians teaching nurses. I'm sure we can learn from everyone we come in contact with but like elkpark said about her dad, not everyone with great knowledge and the desire to share it have our best future interests at heart even if they believe they do. The times are changing and back when my aunt was a nurse the attitude was very military-like where the nurses had to stand up when the doctor entered the ward or nurses station. They were colleagues but not true partners in care as we hope we are striving for as time goes by.

I agree that faculty needs to be paid for the amazing and invaluable contribution they make to our profession. It's a crying shame really. And yes, advanced practice nurses would be great teachers if they could be paid what they also rightly deserve!

Sorry for such a long post.

minpin10 · May 20, 2008

As an Educator I can't believe my eyes. I think there is some room for MD's to help us out but not to replace nursing educators. My belief is that if we stop eating our young then we might have a few nurses that want to teach. Your thoughts?

Long Rider · Jun 4, 2008

I work as an FNP and as an ADN sophomore nursing instructor. I love teaching. Absolutely love it. Granted, I would probably work PRN as an FNP anyway, since I worked so hard to get it, but I HAVE to work extra to make ends meet.

Our school only has class for the fall and spring semesters, in large part so the instructors can work during the summer. We have to. Sure, our instructors are on the top of their game (well, at least most are:p) because we are in the field during the summer, but the student's have lost momentum. It's almost like starting from scratch. I strongly suspect that the students would learn better, and we wouldn't loose as many in the fall if they didn't have to try to build lost inertia at the same time they are trying to learn complex patho, and med information. Alas, the simple fact is, our small community college cannot afford to pay the instructors a12 month contract.

BTW, one of the reasons some nurses may not consider teaching is because sometimes the nursing instructors are treated with open scorn by more and more staff nurses and sometimes the students themselves. I know it's just a sign of the times, but the attitudes I have had to face as a nursing professor have been, er, somewhat... tacky... to say the least.

I know some of it is being the FNG, but I wasn't expecting to bump heads with as many as I have over the past year. Such is life, eh??

Another thing to consider when thinking of the shortage. Clinical sites. We pinned over 100 students this year. That means we had around 120-140 students needing a clinical site at any given time. That was just our sophomores, the freshmen class had a little over 100. Don't forget the LPNs, some where in the neighborhood of 80. That's 300-320 nursing students in one community college, each one needing one to three patients. Sure as the boomers age, we will have more sites and more patients for the students to "play with", but by then, it will be too late.

It's a shame I'm addicted to taking care of others and teaching, otherwise, I'd be an electrician like my dad :clown:

llg, PhD, RN · Jun 4, 2008

Lots of things make business sense, but aren't necessarily a good idea for other reasons.
My father, for example, is a retired physician who is "wise, experienced, eager to help students, and very committed." He would be very interested in participating in a program like that. However, he also believes that nurses, like small children, should be "seen and not heard" -- that they don't need to know or think about anything on their own because their job is to follow the physician's orders without question. His attitude about this is fairly subtle -- he doesn't announce this to you when he walks into the room; it takes time and experience to realize that that's his view and it's not going to change. Is that someone we want teaching nursing students about interdisciplinary communication and working with other professionals? I know that's just one example, but I grew up around many physicians who are now "retired physicians" and that's a very common attitude in that demographic group. Is that an attitude we want conveyed in the nursing school classroom to impressionable students?

My late father was also a physician. However, his attitude seems to have been just the opposite of yours. He was totally supportive of advanced nurse practice roles and advanced education for nurses. In fact, he is the one who encouraged me towards nursing and away from a medical career. While my grandmothers (and high school teachers) were trying to talk me out of nursing and into med school, he (and his friends) were saying things like "Oh no, med school is not worth it. You would have a much higher quality of life as one of those advanced nurses. They have all kinds of new roles for nurses now that sound like great careers. Get your MSN and maybe even a PhD in nursing and you will all kinds of good options to choose from. We need to get more of those kinds of nursing here in our town. etc. etc. etc."

As a small town physician, Dad depended on the RN's at the hospital to assess the patients and meet their needs while he was 5 miles away in his office. He depended on them and respected them. While he was in the hospital frequently in his later years, he loved having nursing students involved in his care. He would teach them about his heart disease and diabetes and tell them stories about his patients. He would have been great in a program like the one described in the article.

I feel strongly about having nurses keep control of nursing education. But one of the hallmarks of a strong and secure discipline is its ability to work with other disciplines without losing its identity. The ability to work well in interdisciplinary groups is a sign of a healthy and strong discipline.

Oh ... and I certainly don't mean to insult your father elkpark or any of his colleagues. But I felt a need to point out that is as much diversity among retired physicians as there is among nurses. Neither group is homogeneous. :wink2:

elkpark · Jun 5, 2008

My late father was also a physician. However, his attitude seems to have been just the opposite of yours. He was totally supportive of advanced nurse practice roles and advanced education for nurses. In fact, he is the one who encouraged me towards nursing and away from a medical career. While my grandmothers (and high school teachers) were trying to talk me out of nursing and into med school, he (and his friends) were saying things like "Oh no, med school is not worth it. You would have a much higher quality of life as one of those advanced nurses. They have all kinds of new roles for nurses now that sound like great careers. Get your MSN and maybe even a PhD in nursing and you will all kinds of good options to choose from. We need to get more of those kinds of nursing here in our town. etc. etc. etc."
As a small town physician, Dad depended on the RN's at the hospital to assess the patients and meet their needs while he was 5 miles away in his office. He depended on them and respected them. While he was in the hospital frequently in his later years, he loved having nursing students involved in his care. He would teach them about his heart disease and diabetes and tell them stories about his patients. He would have been great in a program like the one described in the article.
I feel strongly about having nurses keep control of nursing education. But one of the hallmarks of a strong and secure discipline is its ability to work with other disciplines without losing its identity. The ability to work well in interdisciplinary groups is a sign of a healthy and strong discipline.
Oh ... and I certainly don't mean to insult your father elkpark or any of his colleagues. But I felt a need to point out that is as much diversity among retired physicians as there is among nurses. Neither group is homogeneous. :wink2:

(No offense taken! :))

My dad pooh-poohed at every opportunity the idea of advanced education (anything other than hospital-based diploma schools) for nurses until it was suddenly his little girl applying to nursing graduate programs, when he suddenly decided graduate education in nursing was the greatest thing since sliced bread! Only in my case, though, he still sees me as a special exception ... :rolleyes:

I agree with you completely about the value of interdisciplinary collaboration (psych is my field, and we are all about working in interdisciplinary teams!) I also agree with you that there's plenty of diversity within the physician community -- which is why we can't just assume that all physicians would have attitudes we want transmitted to students. :) I would also make the case that working with other disciplines is very different from being educated by other disciplines ...