Socialized/Universal/Single Payer/Government Funded Health care....why?

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Yes... I know the bleeding hearts are going to start tugging the heart strings and say "Oh the children... Oh the elderly... Oh Humanity."

But why should we change our system from one of a private market and capitalism to one where the government grows; taxes increase and red tape abounds?

I've seen the stats and charts that viking posts over and over and over. I have seen that the UK and Canada... and "every other first world nation" provides universal healthcare. "And they spend less on healthcare..."

Did you know that the UK has a 10% income tax on income as low as $5 K a year? and a 40% tax on income of 66K a year? That doesn't include sales tax; property taxes; excise taxes and everything else that is taxed to hell and back.

What are the things that are different with their healthcare system? How do they do it so cheaply for everyone?

I have to actually research that; and I will; and then get back to you.

I keep hearing and reading that the actual costs of medical care are going to drop. I fail to understand this; really.

Oh, I understand that is cheaper to prevent a disease with a visit to a doctor's office than to treat one in the emergency room.

I understand that if we ACTUALLY work on prevention then healthcare costs may go down.

But I wonder... who accesses care now? Generally; only the folks that really need it.

What happens when no one has to "pay" to see a doctor. Every runny nose; cough and sniffle will be seeking treatment. You think that is difficult to get in to see a doctor now?... Holy cow.

the Emergency Room will still be utilized as a Primary Care clinic because of the inabiltiy of individuals to get appointments...so there goes those "savings."

And if you think that there will be an improvement in the number of drugs and treatments that are available as opposed to those under private insurance companies... you are sadly mistaken.

Big Brother willl appear to alturistic and people will smile and laugh and make merry... until they realize all the things that will not be covered.

Only one way to ensure that 350 million people get health care all the time... control costs. How do you control costs? Pay for as little as possible.

Diabetic? Having problems managing... doctor wants a HgBA1C a couple or three of months in a row... and then one in 3 and 6 month intervals to see how your NPH coverage is working for you.. sorry only 2 per year.

Chemo... costs to much. Radiation? Why you may get radiation poisoning?

Surgery... sure we will cover that; just not the anethesia.

Then; on top of that; how many providers of care are going to stick around and take 10-15 bucks for the same visit that they were previously getting 85-100 bucks for?

And I keep hearing that the providers will not be government employees; that means that there will still be medical groups and such. They will still want to make a profit or they will leave the business...

They will save money as well by cutting costs... how do you cut costs?

first and biggest costs savings is getting rid of labor... by and large. Don't believe me? Ask all the Ford, GM, IBM, and Mortgage employees that were let go when companies failed to meet the bottom line?

or They can refuse to accept the government contracts and accept private insurance only... happens all the time already.

I personally need knee surgery; not to keep my leg from falling off; not to make it so I can walk; because I can; Hell; not even to let me run... because I can do that too. I need knee surgery to alleviate pain from all my years in the Army. How far down the waiting list do you think that my surgery will be? As it is now; all I need to do is schedule an appointment with the ortho/sports med guy.. pay my 150 hospital co-pay and voila... I ll have my knee fixed within 2 weeks from when I make the appointment.

I would estimate that I would be lucky under government healthcare to get it done in less than 3 years.

Indefinate life support... nope... commitees will have to be formed to decide how soon.. (not if) to pull the plug. Prostate Cancer... why try chemo and wait and see... when its really cheaper in the long run and just do a radical prostatectomy... get that tumor quick and no more cancer for you!...

I am sorry Uncle Sam may in fact be our "rich uncle" but when he has to spread it around 350 million or so of our cousins... we aren't going to get much; at all.

So, no thanks. No government healthcare for me please. I'd rather have more take home pay for me and my family. I'd rather have the choice of all the doctors out there... not just the ones that will work cheaply enough to accept medicare.

I'd rather not have to wait for the medical treatments that I need or want.

And to be quite honest... I am sick to death of my tax dollars paying for well; anyone else. Yes, I am a selfish jerk. And no, I really don't care. I provide for my family with my work; I juggled work and family and school to get myself in my position. I enlisted in the Army to get a trade and the GI Bill; and then used those to get college and my MBA. I give to charity. The charities of my choice. If I want to give money or food to the homeless on the street; should be my choice. I tell you I know I do not want to give money to women and men who have 10 kids from 6 different people cause they don't know how to keep it in their pants or what a condom is. Government should not be the biggest charity that there is. We no longer teach accountability and responsibilty in this country. Nope.. we teach entitlement. And that sucks. This would be just one more in the line of handouts and entitlements.

Life, Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness.

Pursuit does not mean you will neccesarily get it. People need to keep that in mind. And, btw, life is never fair, and it never will be.

Specializes in ICU M/S Peds Home Health.
http://www.balancedpolitics.org/universal_health_care.htm
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academic referenced sites? blogs are questionable as they represent the opinion of the writer.....i have a bias towards single payer because it has been shown to work better through the experiences of other countries. i also post links to clear information and original reputable sources that show the basis of my writing and thinking. here are some examples of reputable research.

administrative costs consume 31 percent of us health spending, most of it unnecessary.

(woolhandler, et al “costs of health administration in the u.s. and canada,” nejm 349(8) sept. 21, 2003)

taxes already pay for more than 60 percent of us health spending

americans pay the highest health care taxes in the world. we pay for national health insurance, but don’t get it.

(woolhandler, et al. “paying for national health insurance — and not getting it,” health affairs 21(4); july / aug. 2002)

despite spending far less per capita for health care, canadians are healthier and have better measures of access to health care than americans.

objectives.

we compared health status, access to care, and utilization of medical

services in the united states and canada, and compared disparities according

to race, income, and immigrant status.

methods.

we analyzed population-based data on 3505 canadian and 5183 us

adults from the joint canada/us survey of health. controlling for gender, age,

income, race, and immigrant status, we used logistic regression to analyze country

as a predictor of access to care, quality of care, and satisfaction with care,

and as a predictor of disparities in these measures.

results.

in multivariate analyses, us respondents (compared with canadians)

were less likely to have a regular doctor, more likely to have unmet health needs,

and more likely to forgo needed medicines. disparities on the basis of race, income,

and immigrant status were present in both countries, but were more extreme

in the united states.

conclusions.

united states residents are less able to access care than are canadians.

universal coverage appears to reduce most disparities in access to care.

(am j public health. 2006;96:xxx–xxx. doi:10.2105/ajph.2004.059402)

(lasser et al. “access to care, health status, and health disparities in the united states and canada: results of a cross-national population-based survey,” american journal of public health; july 2006, vol 96, no. 7)

source: http://pnhp.org/single_payer_resources/pnhp_research_the_case_for_a_national_health_program.php accessed 12/28/07.

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again not from a referenced academic website....

my original point stands:

my challenge has been and remains for anyone to demonstrate with research driven and academically supported data that a consumer driven health care system for the us could deliver equal health outcomes to those achieved by the uk, france, canada, nz or aus. the evidence says that the single payer systems do a better job.
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The sources you cite include the opinions of a landscape architect (whose statements you've selectively edited), the opinions of several bloggers, the opinions of an agenda-driven organization that allies itself with Milton Friedman (and they're opposed -- shocking!), and the anonymous opinions of people who post on Yahoo. There might have been legitimate info in some of the magazine articles at some time, but they're old, and the attributory links are broken. Is this really the type of information on which you base your conclusions?

I'm surprised on an issue as important as this that a nurse does not turn to credible sources for background. Unless, of course, this is a matter of principle for you ("I provide for me") to the exclusion of facts. As for the question of why we should continue to rely on for-profit businesses for health care, it remains unanswered.

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Specializes in ICU M/S Peds Home Health.

Viking,

Your citations are not academically referenced. Your sources are not subjective. YOUR sources cherry pick the information that they want to.

Freedom42;

THERE are lots of sources in the first post that are not blogs or opinions... or at least they are no more opinions than what pnhp is offering.

Just like I said

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Specializes in ICU M/S Peds Home Health.

Viking... the articles that I posted are opinions. Just like the opinion of the pnhp that you provide. Your source IS NOT an academic website...it is the biased opinion of those that want Nationalized healthcare

If you read the opinions... yes they are opinions.. most of them cite or link the studies that they based their opinions from...

National Polls, filed lawsuits, HARVARD ECONOMISTS, etc...

MY original point stands... IT wouldn't matter if I conducted a 10 year research project that clearly deomstrated that National healthcare in the United States is not workable with all kinds of footnotes and citations it wouldn't change anyone's mind that believes that we should save everyone from everything... including themselves

I do not feel that way. You either make it, or you don't. The world, the country, nor myself does not owe you anything. Period.

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Maybe this is why,

http://www.aarp.org/issues/advocacy/are_you_covered.html

"Are You Covered?

What if our nation was a place in which no one had to go without health care?

A nation in which everyone-children, mothers, the elderly-could get health care at a price they can afford?

By working TOGETHER and raising our voices, we can make this a reality."

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Specializes in ICU M/S Peds Home Health.
Maybe this is why,

http://www.aarp.org/issues/advocacy/are_you_covered.html

"Are You Covered?

What if our nation was a place in which no one had to go without health care?

A nation in which everyone-children, mothers, the elderly-could get health care at a price they can afford?

By working TOGETHER and raising our voices, we can make this a reality."

What if our nation were in a place where everyone had groceries?

What if our nation were in a place where everyone had a place to live?

Sounds great... and its a wonderful Idea...

but Still it amounts to taking from those who have (for no other reason than that they have) and giving to those that have not (for no other reason than they do not have).

I would rather live in a nation that expects citizens to provide for themselves. I would rather live in a world where the hard work and dedication are rewarded... not merely existence.

I do not believe that just because you were born you are entitled to the same things that I have achieved. I worked for mine. You work for yours.

Yes, there are exceptions. But they should be few and far between.

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Well, I guess this could be argued till the cows come home. 2008 will tell. Curious, what will you do if a single payer system were to be enacted?

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