Hello all! I figured it will be safer to post here than in the general nursing forums, since alot of my fellow Excelsior grads post here regularly. I've read some recent and past posts regarding this ADN vs BSN debate, and it actually make me feel like the scrapings off the bottom of a barrel due to the fact that I only have a ADN. There a few members who are totally anti-ADN and is basically blaming the Diploma and Associate Degree Nurses for the reason why nurses are not considered to be professionals. These members go on to say that doctors will never respect us if the entry-level to nursing isn't changed to BSN instead of ADN.
Every step in my professional life has been earned with hard-work and dedication. In 2002, I started as a CNA in a hospital. In 2005, I became a LPN. In 2010, I became a RN. I've worked full-time while going to school for my LPN and RN. I was paying my own rent, bills, ect while focusing on advancing my career. My family and co-workers have been very proud of my accomplishments. My parents have my RN degree and license framed and hung on the wall as a proud display. I used to be very proud of my accomplishments until I became a regular visitor to this website. It seems like each day there is a student nurse or a pre-nursing student who asks the same question regarding whether they should go for their ADN or BSN, which as usual sparks a beat down of all ADN programs and nurses. There is the nursing news section that a member will post something regarding nurses are not viewed as professionals, which will have certain members again reiterating that ADN and Diploma nurses are to blame.
I have all intentions of completing my BSN in due time, but I never thought I will be viewed as a disgrace to the nursing profession because I have an Associate Degree. Am I being too overly-sensitive or is there others who feel the ADN bashing is also getting to them?
I would like to point out that at least most ADN degrees take 4 yrs to complete just as a BSN. There are 2 years of prereqs prior to the 2 yr program. Granted there are some things you get from a BSN program that you dont in the ADN, the biggest one for me was the bill for a four yr program. Don't get me wrong I am not by any means putting down the 4 yr, but those with a 2yr deserve the same respect, as we have worked just as hard for just as long.
This is not really true everywhere and it certainly hasn't been true in the past. ADN programs have gotten competitive because they are generally inexpensive (community college tuition) and the payoff at the end is a decent sized paycheck, so they are having you take your prereqs ahead of time as "weeder" classes prior to application/admission. There are still CC ADN programs that will admit you straight out of high school and do indeed take you only two years if you go full time. This means taking your sciences and liberal arts concurrently with your nursing curriculum. It can be done and is still done. I did one of these in the late 90s -- I happened to have a BS, so I only went part time, but I did go to school with a bunch a people that had very few or no college credits and they graduated the same time I did.
I think the debate should change from "who's a better nurse" to "change in job security." I don't care what the ANA says, in a lot of areas in the US, there's no such thing as a "nursing shortage" anymore. There is a glut, and now employers get to choose. Regardless of what any of us think, or regardless of our personal anecdotes, studies are proving that patient mortality improves not only with better nurse-to-patient ratios, but also with nurses with higher education (BSN and higher).
With stories coming out of the Northeast about ADNs not only not finding work out of school, but also losing jobs (being replaced by BSNs) ... this isn't "our" fight anymore ... it's about what we all should evaluate when it comes to how we provide for our families. We can be proud and AWESOME nurses who make a difference all we want, but if the corporation that owns your hospital suddenly makes a BSN-only decision ... you're out on the street.
Before the tomatos start ... I've been an ADN RN for 15 years, and I'm darn proud of it. Last year, I went back to school, and I'm nearly finished with my BSN, and I've learned two things in the process: 1) I'm a better student now because I have a frame of reference, and 2) I didn't know all I thought I knew (or needed to know) about nursing, patient outcomes, and the healthcare industry. I'm still learning!
I think the "fights" we create amongst ourselves over who's the better nurse is foolish and petty, but the REAL concern is how each of us address a changing market place. This is a capitalist society whether you like it or not, and ALL of our jobs are part of that free-market place. In a growing glut (such as the one we have now), we need to evaluate what the best decisions are not only for our patients and career advancement, but also or our continuing ability to provide for our families.
It's time to degree up ... and that's some advice I'm giving myself!
I would like to point out that at least most ADN degrees take 4 yrs to complete just as a BSN. There are 2 years of prereqs prior to the 2 yr program. but those with a 2yr deserve the same respect, as we have worked just as hard for just as long.
BSN degrees require the same 2 years of re-reqs as the ASN and then it take three more years, so not it is not the same amount of time. I see just as much bashing on the BSN as the ASN, usually one side bashing the other. Just be proud of what ever degree you got.
Specializes in ER, ICU, Hyperbarics/Wound Care, Psych.
I have read these comments and heard these comments so many times. I find it humorous. I have an ADN. I woked for 10 years in a level 1 trauma center. I can tell you that if a person didn't tell you what degree they had you could never figure it out by their performance. Diploma, ADN, BSN, MSN, they may have educational differences, but it is their experience on the job that counts. I know nurses that excelled in school and couldn't handle the job. As far as being treated as professionals it works out to money. Drs. charge for their service and hence bring money into the hospital. The same holds true for Social Workers, Respiratory, Radiology, etc. Nurses are considered an expense by hospital administators. We are included in the room charge just like the sheets, blankets, IV poles, etc. When you have to cut costs you don't take from the money makers, you take from the expenditures (nurses). We can't buy cheaper blankets, but we can raise the nurse/patient ratio and cut costs. We can lay off a janitor and make the nurses mop between patients. We can do away with the night time pharmacist and have the nurses get their own meds. And we always do it, we may complain about it all night, but we mop, we clean, we get meds. Find a job no one else will do and assign it to the nursing staff and it always gets done. Justified by "well someone has to do it and it is in the patient's best interest."
It has nothing to do with education. Ask a social worker to mop the floors, or take out the garbage. Ask a psychologist to clean up a patient they are assessing that just had a BM. I have been called to PT so many times to "clean up this gentleman and bring him back please, he's had an accident." Get a clue nurses. We do not as a profession have any type of cohesiveness. You can't get 2 nurses to stand up for the color of a uniform let alone to stand together and demand safe ratios, hours, adequate back up staff. Drs. stick together, back each other up, demand respect and get it. Nurses spend their spare time writing each other up for petty infractions that are essentially meaningless in actual patient care outcome. Why would anyone consider this the behavior of a professional? Want to be treated as a professional, act like you are one. Nurses need to join together, unity is power. No one hears my voice, everyone hears our voices.
I have read these comments and heard these comments so many times. I find it humorous. I have an ADN. I woked for 10 years in a level 1 trauma center. I can tell you that if a person didn't tell you what degree they had you could never figure it out by their performance. Diploma, ADN, BSN, MSN, they may have educational differences, but it is their experience on the job that counts. I know nurses that excelled in school and couldn't handle the job. As far as being treated as professionals it works out to money. Drs. charge for their service and hence bring money into the hospital. The same holds true for Social Workers, Respiratory, Radiology, etc. Nurses are considered an expense by hospital administators. We are included in the room charge just like the sheets, blankets, IV poles, etc. When you have to cut costs you don't take from the money makers, you take from the expenditures (nurses). We can't buy cheaper blankets, but we can raise the nurse/patient ratio and cut costs. We can lay off a janitor and make the nurses mop between patients. We can do away with the night time pharmacist and have the nurses get their own meds. And we always do it, we may complain about it all night, but we mop, we clean, we get meds. Find a job no one else will do and assign it to the nursing staff and it always gets done. Justified by "well someone has to do it and it is in the patient's best interest."
It has nothing to do with education. Ask a social worker to mop the floors, or take out the garbage. Ask a psychologist to clean up a patient they are assessing that just had a BM. I have been called to PT so many times to "clean up this gentleman and bring him back please, he's had an accident." Get a clue nurses. We do not as a profession have any type of cohesiveness. You can't get 2 nurses to stand up for the color of a uniform let alone to stand together and demand safe ratios, hours, adequate back up staff. Drs. stick together, back each other up, demand respect and get it. Nurses spend their spare time writing each other up for petty infractions that are essentially meaningless in actual patient care outcome. Why would anyone consider this the behavior of a professional? Want to be treated as a professional, act like you are one. Nurses need to join together, unity is power. No one hears my voice, everyone hears our voices.
This is a bit of an odd post, really, as here in my wonderful state of Kentucky, ADNs and BSNs are seen as the same - RNs! The main difference comes with being able to teach (as it's up to the institution, after all, everyother instructor has to have alteast a Masters in whatever their field is).
I guess I should tell a little of my backstory so that you get the fact that I just want the RN after my name, and I'm in an ADN program and fine with it!
I started out wanting to be a Biology teacher, then found the glorious field of Physician Assistant... So, I got my AS in Biology and transferred to a university for by BS in Biology, but I couldn't live on campus and drove the 3 hour round trip daily (5 days a week) while carrying 15+ hours, needless to say, I burnt out quickly! I made it two semesters, and transferred back to the community college, where I had decided I'd be "just a nurse." Well, that idea changed totally when I took the CNA class (my school requires it before applying to either the LPN or RN program). Being at clinical, and later working at my current job really changed things for me.
I realized that PAs, MDs, and DOs for that matter, are seen by patients as someone that writes orders for medications and sends them for tests. But, nurses are the ones that they ask questions to, nurses are the ones that are at the hospital with them in the middle of the night when their IV comes out because they had a seizure and need a new one started, nurses are the ones that are there, regardless.
And, for that matter, patients don't seem to care what letters come after your name, RN, ADN, BSN, MSN, Ph. D., LPN, or CNA for that matter, as long as you can help them. If that means giving them a bed bath, helping them to the bathroom, giving them medications, preparing them for discharge, coming to their home for home health, etc.
At the end of the day, we're all in the same boat. Well, at least, I hope to be in a few years!
What's with the insecurity?? ADN vs. BSN what's the difference BSN has a few more classes in nursing philosophy and history? If you have confidence and you uphold your position as an RN no one else will even know your degree is considered a step down. If your facility has hired you all you can do is live up to it! If you have questions ask... no one wants an incompetent nurse it can cost a life, but I have found myself (with ADN) correcting others and/or giving advice to others in the field. It's not about your level of education, it's about your delivery of care. If your colleagues do not respect you that is something you have to address with them in private and leave at the door at the beginning of the shift. Healthcare is all about team work and communication among caregivers. Don't let them bring you down, be confident!
I think this boils down to a societal debate about the importance of credentials. I would argue that an ADN nurse with several years of experience is equally qualified (if not more qualified) than a newbie BSN nurse. I believe that in any professional field you learn more once you actually begin performing the job on a daily basis than you do during the education or training period. That being said, American society places heavy emphasis on educational achievement and degree level. I think that many people with advanced degrees feel threatened by those with lesser degrees because if they can achieve the same or better results with less education it undermines the importance of the higher degree. This can sometimes make those with higher degrees in-secure or defensive about someone with lesser education being considered their equal. At the end of the day it is about the knowledge and experience we possess and how well we perform our jobs. Lets put degree level aside and focus on providing the best patient care possible.:up:
I don't know if you guys all live in big cities or what, but I know that the area I live in (West Virginia), we don't get paid any more for having our BSN vs. ADN. I went the BSN route because I wanted to enter the military (and you have to have it to be commissioned on active duty), however, as a relatively new nurse, we observe our preceptors and other nurses for the way we want to be. I can tell you that some ADNs are better than BSNs. Some BSNs are better than some ADNs. I think it boils down more to attitude and experience as to how good of a nurse you are rather than the type of degree you have.
.thumb.gif.5406a59d44f5c666e8ff3ebac639497a.gif){kind=avatar}
:up:
grandmawrinkle
272 Posts
This is not really true everywhere and it certainly hasn't been true in the past. ADN programs have gotten competitive because they are generally inexpensive (community college tuition) and the payoff at the end is a decent sized paycheck, so they are having you take your prereqs ahead of time as "weeder" classes prior to application/admission. There are still CC ADN programs that will admit you straight out of high school and do indeed take you only two years if you go full time. This means taking your sciences and liberal arts concurrently with your nursing curriculum. It can be done and is still done. I did one of these in the late 90s -- I happened to have a BS, so I only went part time, but I did go to school with a bunch a people that had very few or no college credits and they graduated the same time I did.