7 on - 7 off shift schedule

JKL33 · Aug 22, 2022

I don't know but this isn't her fault. I'd stop focusing on her if I were you.

On 8/21/2022 at 4:19 PM, SunDazed said:

This nurse has worked M-T-W-Th for years. No surprise that they had trouble finding someone to work Fri-Sat-Sun indefinitely.

They needed her help badly enough on MTWTh that they let her work those days.

On 8/21/2022 at 4:19 PM, SunDazed said:

I am a bit annoyed with management for approving all her vacation requests as there is no reliable relief, not even the supervisors.

Not the employees' problem.

On 8/21/2022 at 4:19 PM, SunDazed said:

It is a small to medium sized agency. Like everyone else in healthcare there are always a lot of open positions that are tough to fill, including per diem on call night relief.

I mean, maybe these people just don't have the skills to run a small business.

On 8/21/2022 at 4:19 PM, SunDazed said:

after claiming over and over she always speaks to the other nurse about her plans.

Maybe she is one of those people who just wears on others for various reasons, I get it, but.....I'm sticking with my theme here, she shouldn't have to apprise her coworkers of her plans. Whether she is at work or not is strictly for the employer to worry about.

On 8/21/2022 at 4:19 PM, SunDazed said:

I am coming from union hospitals, I expect there to be some intent on making holiday work somewhat fair. Her response is to use fair in quotations... make it more "fair". What in the world does that mean?

Maybe she means that she doesn't wanna work many holidays. And if they don't make her....well....??‍♀️. They obviously want to continue to employ her enough that they haven't required her to change much about her schedule or the way she does things.

I say all of the above for a reason:

The more you point to her, blame her, etc, the the easier it is for them to make this SEEM LIKE a "you two..." issue. "You two" need to work stuff out, etc. Are you making enough money at this gig that you feel all of this should be your problem? You making business owner kind of money?

You would be better off telling them what YOU are willing to do and see where the chips fall. She does it....why don't you?

SunDazed, BSN, RN · Aug 22, 2022

@JKL33

I buy some of these same arguments you pose when the place of work is acute care and the 'them' is hospital administration. I don't think you can distill the essence of this situation in the same precise way due to the small size of organization, a situation where there are only two people to work the shift opposite each other, and because our mission statement is really lived by at least half the staff? There is a lot of scrambling to get things covered on a day to day basis. In this area though, even before Covid, there was always a shortage of nurses. Our hospice has pretty high staff turnover. So anyone who is willing to stick around and not let the dysfunction stick to them, but somehow make it work for them is in the catbird seat. Travelers in hospice are much harder to justify.

I won't blame you for using your same talking points over and over. I do not think they are universally applicable. I clearly need to figure out how to better communicate the particulars of the situation if I am going to ask for input. I am very aware that this could become a her versus me situation.

My biggest ask here of the community is any ideas for scheduling of two people who work opposite night shifts, both need 7 shifts in any 14 day pay period, it should share weekend obligations over the course of the year, and it needs to allow for a period of a few night on and a few nights off (every night nurse has had the experience of the new manager who thinks you should ba able to work every other night at some point?)

JKL33 · Aug 23, 2022

13 hours ago, SunDazed said:

I won't blame you for using your same talking points over and over. I do not think they are universally applicable. I clearly need to figure out how to better communicate the particulars of the situation if I am going to ask for input.

I think my talking points are more applicable than you think they are. Generally these situations, whether big or small, boil down to similar underlying motivations, principles and problems.

Regardless, I hope you can work something out that is a little more in line with what you were expecting. ??

kp2016 · Aug 23, 2022

On 8/21/2022 at 10:19 PM, SunDazed said:

Does anyone know of a schedule that evenly divides 14 day pay periods in to 7 shifts each for 2 nurses, rotates weekends, but aren't 7 on - 7 off? She seems willing to change out of this schedule - I might be so too just to have a little predictability. I was thinking there might be a way to do mostly 5 on - 5 off, but then have some planned odd 2-3 night runs to make it even over time.

Thanks for listening to the wind blow.

I am sorry for your situation but ...... Your colleague who has been working there for 20 years already has the exact schedule that she wants, there is no alternative that she will like or accept. Her implying that she is open to suggestions just puts the (impossible) task of finding an acceptable solution back on you. She wants the 4 week days and no weekends. Lucky for her management clearly doesn't care that forces you to do every weekend and every holiday.

Every hospital I've worked at that required us to work holidays had a clear policy which was enforced. At one despite only being there 6 months I was required to do my full share of major and minor holidays, self sign up or they would be assigned. Putting in a leave form changed nothing, leave was denied if it meant you wouldn't met your required number. But again your management clearly doesn't care as the holidays are covered, by you!

I agree with JKL33. The real issue here isn't what she wants or will agree too because spoiler alert she already has exactly what she wants. Management has what they want, their shifts covered. At your review you need to focus on you, what you were hired to do, and what you are willing to do going forward. Basically you need to tell them you need to scheduled full time and will only do every second weekend and the holidays that fall on your weekend. You are not available to cover holidays that fall on your days off.

The fact that another employee can't have what they want at your expense is between that person and management so put it back where it belongs. I am sorry to say it but you may have to follow this up with an offer of a resignation if this does not occur because I will say it again, your colleague and management already have exactly what they want and it's unlikely they will change their position while you continue to facilitate them.

Best of luck.

SunDazed, BSN, RN · Aug 24, 2022

23 hours ago, kp2016 said:

I am sorry for your situation but ...... Your colleague who has been working there for 20 years already has the exact schedule that she wants, there is no alternative that she will like or accept.

We had our first in person meeting yesterday since I was hired (Covid remote meetings before). I was able to ask her if she has always been on that schedule. She has not been. She also left for a job at the hospital in that 20 years time and came back. Meeting her in person, boy-o, she was so dramatic. She was making up holiday situations that are not likely to occur and asking me to make choices about them. It was a bit bizarre.

On 8/23/2022 at 7:38 AM, kp2016 said:

Her implying that she is open to suggestions just puts the (impossible) task of finding an acceptable solution back on you. She wants the 4 week days and no weekends. Lucky for her management clearly doesn't care that forces you to do every weekend and every holiday.

I was able to create two alternative options that were based on 5 night rotations. The first was mainly 5 nights, with a few 4 nights thrown in to adjust for pay periods and holiday coverage. The second was less straight forward and had more 4 night rotations, but also shared holidays. The upside met her desire to not work 7 in a row, also shared weekends and holidays. The downside was you would have to consult your schedule all the time before planning things as you would not be working the same days of the week on a weekly or biweekly basis.

I think her brain might have imploded slightly on seeing those, though the manager thought they were viable compromises. My coworker came to the meeting with a plan for October thru the end of the year based on the 7-on/7-off with a little transition to share the Winter holidays. She wanted something a little more regular than my proposals so made a schedule herself. Fine by me. Still way too much dramatic energy.

She was really hung up on the use of the word "fair" to describe the holiday sharing idea. She used air quotes almost every time she said it, along with a weird tone change followed by a pause when she said the word. So much drama over defining fair. It made me wonder if she had been an only child. I did not ask. Or maybe some PTSD from a past relationship... the word definitely was a trigger for her.

On 8/23/2022 at 7:38 AM, kp2016 said:

Every hospital I've worked at that required us to work holidays had a clear policy which was enforced. At one despite only being there 6 months I was required to do my full share of major and minor holidays, self sign up or they would be assigned. Putting in a leave form changed nothing, leave was denied if it meant you wouldn't met your required number. But again your management clearly doesn't care as the holidays are covered, by you!

Yeah, I come from the hospital background with holiday policies. There is a holiday policy at this hospice, but it applies more readily to the day folks, the case managers and visit nurses, than it does to us. This gal has worked almost exclusively out of the hospital, apart from the one job. And that job was not a bedside shift nurse roll. Our manager also comes from a hospital background. The other nurse claims she has worked almost all the holidays at hospice for 20 years. Umm, can we get a fact check on that?

She was very defensive about taking vacations. My problem was not that she took vacations. My issue was that she claims to always let the other nurse know what is up, then asked for the 4th of July off without any of the heads up she prides herself on. It took 3 different ways of stating this for her to understand why I had a problem with it. Don't claim to be open and transparent, but then be underhanded.

I did mention in the pre-meeting email that I was frustrated with they way my schedule worked out to cover it. The manager did assure us both, that it would be covered, and if I needed to say no more, I could. So that is good to know. As Covid has burned everyone out, more and more nurses at this place have hardened their boundaries and are less willing to help out on nights.

She could not wrap her head around the Summer holiday idea that everyone who has worked in a hospital gets. I had to explain it like she was a grade schooler, in a respectful way of course. Memorial Day, 4th of July, and Labor Day. Those are the Summer holidays. I was slated to work for Memorial Day and Labor Day, then she asked off July 4th. This really was a hugely foreign concept to her - or she played that it was. The manager backed me. She offered to work Labor Day for me since it was the only holiday left. The one day. So then I had to educate on how it is not about the actual holiday day for the Summer holidays, it is about the whole weekend. Again, a concept that was new to her? For reals?

Since it is the end of August with Labor Day weekend just around the corner, and my September schedule still in the process of being worked out to cover her vacation, I declined. It made no sense to swap at this point. But the acknowledgement that it will be different next year was a good start.

She did try to find a way to back us out of the 7-on/7-off, since the main benefit for her was being able to take one week off, to get three weeks off. I see that as a great benefit too, how to realize it is another story. And now management has said, that until staffing changes in the future, this amount of vacation in one stretch is not an option. It is preferable at this point to add 2-3 days onto a stretch of 7 off. That is what can be covered now.

She went off on some tangets about delaying her own knee surgery because of lack of relief for our shift, and how things have been done in the past, and her rationale for working holidays. The main reason I don't like working holidays at this job is the day shift is so thinly staffed, that there are so many more calls for stuff that is normally handled by day shift. It is a dramatic difference in how my night goes. And the holiday time and a half doesn't always make up for it. Might get holiday pay for 2 shifts, but have to suffer through 4-5 nights of stressed out calls from families.

So, we will see if she can commit to working the 7on-7off as she prefers that to the compromise scheduled I proposed. The words have been said, let's see if the actions follow through. She has a little trouble with that.

kbrn2002, ADN, RN · Aug 28, 2022

I read this a couple of times before deciding to answer. I get that it's a vent thread but still... I am looking at this from the other nurse's point of view and getting a little angry for her sake.

She's had a schedule for years that works for her, then along comes a new nurse and that schedule is changed. She takes vacation time that she has earned and deserves to use, the new nurse complains and now the vacation policy is changed so goodbye to the long stretch off. She asks for a scheduled Holiday off and guess what, the new nurse complained so now the Holiday rotation will change. The one common denominator in messing up her schedule is the new nurse. If I were her I'd be furious with the new nurse, that would be you.

JKL33 · Aug 28, 2022

Maybe she will quit and they'll get the opportunity to search for someone who wants to work your opposite.

vampiregirl, BSN, RN · Aug 29, 2022

In regards to splitting a 14 day pay period, here are a potential option that includes a 3 day weekend every other weekend. I could also see a variation with a 4 day weekend every other weekend (and a four day weekend off on the alternate week):

Su M Tu W Th F Sa Su M Tu W Th F Sa

Nurse A X. X. X X X. X X

Nurse B X X X X X X X

As for holidays, I've worked schedules that alternated holidays and also just kept the usual schedule. I also worked one place where staff selected a specific number of "major" and "minor" holidays based on seniority. Where I work now, it is a rotation over several years so that people don't have the same holidays in consecutive years. Trades are approved if both parties are in agreement AEB signatures on a form.

SunDazed, BSN, RN · Aug 30, 2022

On 8/28/2022 at 5:32 AM, kbrn2002 said:

I read this a couple of times before deciding to answer. I get that it's a vent thread but still... I am looking at this from the other nurse's point of view and getting a little angry for her sake.

She's had a schedule for years that works for her, then along comes a new nurse and that schedule is changed. She takes vacation time that she has earned and deserves to use, the new nurse complains and now the vacation policy is changed so goodbye to the long stretch off. She asks for a scheduled Holiday off and guess what, the new nurse complained so now the Holiday rotation will change. The one common denominator in messing up her schedule is the new nurse. If I were her I'd be furious with the new nurse, that would be you.

She had the schedule for only a portion of the 21 years. It was not me who requested her to change it up. It was HR and her supervisor that asked her to change as the were having trouble hiring anyone (again) who would work a relatively low paying nursing job to work Fri-Sat-Sun forever.

Yes, vacation is earned and deserved to be used. It is not her fault that time off is approved when there is no actual relief available. Management could have just denied some of her time off requests. No one is guaranteed to have all their vacation time approved every time they ask. Are they?

She recently indicated she would like to be able to call me at "the last minute" to swap shifts if she had an unexpected opportunity to go to a concert. Really? Yeah, no. I need more notice than that.

Before they hired me, she had to work extra and every weekend for at least 4 months. Most of the available relief can only work non-holiday, week nights. If they hadn't hired me she would still be doing that. They couldn't get anyone to apply for an all weekend gig opposite her.

So either she works all weekends, or things change to create another job that someone like me would apply for and accept. Believe me... she talks about all the problems this hospice has had in making her schedule ideal for decades. So I am not sure I am her biggest problem... for the first 7 months I have basically worked unwanted overtime to cover her 3 long vacations and her getting covid.

And guess what? She is harassing me to take time off so she can earn bonus money for covering my shifts. When they heck could I have taken time off? I get the feeling I should do this to match her needs as well. Maybe she will work out a good time off schedule for me to match her current availability?

Yeah, clearly I am the problem.

SunDazed, BSN, RN · Aug 30, 2022

On 8/28/2022 at 9:27 AM, JKL33 said:

Maybe she will quit and they'll get the opportunity to search for someone who wants to work your opposite.

She won't quit. I don't want her to quit. I would really hope there is more interjection by management since she clearly expects to do whatever she wants when she wants. They have the power to say no to some stuff. And I am prepared to say more often.

SunDazed, BSN, RN · Aug 30, 2022

On 8/28/2022 at 7:47 PM, vampiregirl said:

In regards to splitting a 14 day pay period, here are a potential option that includes a 3 day weekend every other weekend. I could also see a variation with a 4 day weekend every other weekend (and a four day weekend off on the alternate week):

Su M Tu W Th F Sa Su M Tu W Th F Sa

Nurse A X. X. X X X. X X

Nurse B X X X X X X X

As for holidays, I've worked schedules that alternated holidays and also just kept the usual schedule. I also worked one place where staff selected a specific number of "major" and "minor" holidays based on seniority. Where I work now, it is a rotation over several years so that people don't have the same holidays in consecutive years. Trades are approved if both parties are in agreement AEB signatures on a form.

Thanks for this example. Do you work something like this now? I was drawn toward working more consecutive night shifts because of my experience in acute care. Maybe in this on call roll, breaking up the days is less of a thing.

What does the 4 day weekend rotation look like? That sounds interesting.

We don't have SW or chaplain on the weekends or holidays. So if there is a big hairy SW mess on Friday at 5... it is not addressed again until Monday or Tuesday at best. So the scanty weekend coverage, including the Noc nurse, is left to patch it together until SW is back on the job. That is what I hate most about weekends and holidays, the family that is in desperate need of SW support.

I would want to run the rotation on a calendar to see how the holidays played out. Maybe it naturally divides them pretty evenly?