Hi everyone. I've spent the last few hours reading the 'nursing ghost stories' thread, and along those lines.... how many of your patients see/talk to their loved ones before they pass away?
I'm a third semester student so I don't have any nursing experiences to share, but my 74 year old grandmother (Gran), whom I love immeasurably, is losing her battle with breast cancer. She was diagnosed with stage IV last year, and to be honest, I didn't think that I would have the joy of another year with her. I have, and for that I am more grateful than I can ever put into words. Along with the cancer, she has a laundry list of other health problems, and she is on dozens of meds. We know that the cancer has metastasized to her bones and her spine, and a new onset of symptoms is suggestive of metastases to her CSF as well. She isn't "on death's door" quite yet, but I don't think we have much time left with her.
For the last four or five months, Gran has been seeing her mother (my great-grandmother, Mim, who died in 2005). Not just glimpses of her -- according to Gran, Mim is living with her. She said that she sees her every single day, and that most of the time Mim will talk with her for hours. At other times, Mim will not look at or acknowledge Gran; she'll just stand beside her, which bothers Gran tremendously. Mim was the only dead loved one that Gran would see, until recently. Her husband (who passed away in 2006) visits her, although infrequently, and they also talk. Those 'visits' don't cause Gran any distress.
I am a logical person, and I realize that Gran's age, conditions and meds most likely account for the hallucinations. But in my heart, in a place where logic does not thrive for long, I feel that she is truly seeing her mother and her husband. I've heard about people seeing dead loved ones in the days before they pass, but this has been ongoing for months. I guess I'm just trying to understand -- if you are a spiritual person, but a logical, analytical person as well, where do you draw the line between medical hallucination and spiritual occurrence?
I don't mean to ramble on... I've read these boards for a while and post rarely, but you all seem like such a good group of people. I would love to hear your experiences with things like this and your thoughts on them.
(... and thank you for sticking with a long post!)
Specializes in ICU, PICU, School Nursing, Case Mgt.
Sorry, Intern, while I consider myself intelligent, analytical and certainlly not gulible, I have to say that after working in ICU, PICU and Hopice and witnessing many many deaths that there really is something to the "I see dead people" concept.
If this phemonena were confind to adults, especially the elderly, I might be more of a skeptic too, but I have seen many children look above the nurses heads and speak to their grandmothers, grandfathers or other dead loved ones. A good number of these kids were no older than 5 so I don't think they had any preconceptions drummed into their heads.
One little boy, who had just achieved remission from Wilms tumor, freaked even the most harded nurse one night when he looked over at the corner and told the "person" standing there to "go away, I am not ready yet, I am better"...this kid was lucid and not medicated. He explained that the big guy was waiting for him but he wasn't ready to go...this kid remissed for about 2 years. He was 8years old when he said that and did not come from a religious family. Came in about 2 years later and we lost him. He died peacefully, with a smile on his face.
No, he did not have mets to the brain...and never devoped them.
I think it is difficult to dismiss the concept when it happens so frequently and universally.
I also dreamed that I saw my father lying in a casket At that time he was 39 years old with no known health problems. He was dead 10 days later...a massive coronary. He was buried in a casket with clothes that were identical to my dream. I did not help to choose either of these. I was 12 years old.
This has stuck with me for 40 years and since then, I question very little when it comes to the unexplained.
I just accept it and go on.
To the OP,
My sincere condolences on your grandmother. I was raised by mine and blessed enough to have had her in my life until she was 89. Still had all of her marbles, too. Hugs to your and your grandma.:redbeathe
I think it is difficult to dismiss the concept when it happens so frequently and universally.
S
The examples cited are simply more confirmation bias. How many times do we dream of something happening to relatives and they turn out fine? We forget this immediately.
How many patients do or say strange things and absolutely nothing happens? How many patients say, "I'm going to die tomorrow" and they live for years? How many say, "I'm going to live for a long time" and they die next week? But we completely ignore those events.
We pick and choose the examples we want and try to insert meaning.
Same for the International Association for Near-Death Studies link posted earlier. Are they doing any scientific studies of near death experiences or just collecting stories of phenomena they choose that fits their mission?
Contrary to previous statements, these things can be investigated.
One example: One very commonly reported near death experience is the patient floating above themselves watching caregivers work on them. In response to this, researchers posted photographs up near the ceiling where only someone high off the floor could see them. They then waited for people to report floating and asked them to describe what they saw.
Do you think anyone saw the photographs? Take a guess.
Same for the International Association for Near-Death Studies link posted earlier. Are they doing any scientific studies of near death experiences or just collecting stories of phenomena they choose that fits their mission?
both, but lots of research.
the following is a research article about obe (outer body experiences).
"pretty much everyone" is quite a claim you are making. i have seen many people die who had no such hallucinations and i have seen many people die who had many other types of hallucinations. as i mentioned, all the other types of hallucinations are immediately dismissed, but you focus on the "loved ones" aspect. the "loved ones coming to them" hypothesis is so focused on because that is what the observer wants to believe.
if there was "something to it" that is not just hallucinating, then an investigation into it should yield some insights. while you are at it, you would have to compile a list of other hallucinations, categorize them and investigate them too. but you don't. you only consider the dead relatives possibility.
why?
considering the focus many cultures put on dead relatives watching over us from beyond the grave, it is any wonder that people recall these memories and put them into action when their systems are so compromised?
others spend their lives fearing the government and lo and behold when their mental status is diminished they are sure the fbi, cia, or irs agents are present and after them. but for some reason, no one investigates these goverment agencies to see why they are harrassing these poor dying people.
think about it, if a person spent their entire lives being told that that "magic margarita blender" would escort them to the afterworld at the moment of their death, i would wager that magic blender sightings would be rampant. same goes for jesus. many people call out to and think they see jesus when they are dying. they do this because they were told all their life this would happen.
those that were never told jesus would come to get them or who never heard of jesus are for some reason never visited by jesus. why is this? is jesus guilty of discrimination?
the only reason people believe dead relative sightings are real is because they want to believe they are real.
the same could be said about religion. who are we to judge? we all have (or will) experiences of dealing with death and seeing what we see/hear in those cases, and really, can any of us verify what we are seeing/hearing in that moment? it would be a hard thing to investigate these dying patients, wouldn't it? there are all sorts of studies that have claimed hypoxia and a dying brain lead to these hallucinations, but until you've witnessed a dying person claiming these things, it may change your mind. i don't know what to believe, and i won't know until i die! i do think having these interactions would certainly bring a calm passing to a scary event of dying. my husband and i have made a pact that contains certain information only the two of us will ever know, so when one passes away, we'll know if it's truly the other coming through when this certain information is divulged.
as a sidenote on the religion topic, how is it that protestants (i think) claim to speak in tongues, yet when a person talks gibberish and believes jesus/god is speaking through them, would be secured and isolated in the er as a psychiatric evaluation. there are many believers of speaking in tongues (not me, but still), but the point is, how do we/you know it's not hallucinations? how do you actually prove that?? that would be more a question of what you believe and faith. i believe what a person experiences at the time of passing might fall into this category. far for anyone else to judge until their time comes.
Thank you, SWS, for your kind words about my Gran. I really do appreciate them :) And thanks everyone for the replies -- I, like Intern67, think this is a good topic for discussion. I hope no one gets their toes stepped on, though, while we're discussing. Diversity is what makes the world go round!
With that said, I am about half and half on the topic. I know that hallucinations are freakish, although (sometimes) explainable, medical events. I also agree with Intern67 about confirmation bias, to an extent -- but I also feel that not all experiences can be explained as such. I am really interested in a couple of things that were brought up in this thread -- the first of which being the 'comfort mechanisms' that dying people have.
Please note that I am asking these questions out of a sincere desire to understand. What are these comfort mechanisms? I believe (and if I'm wrong, correct me!!) I read somewhere that there is a large amount of dopamine released at or near the time of death -- would that provoke these mechanisms into action? What other comfort mechanisms are there, besides the hallucinations? And I know this is going to sound cold when I say it, trust me when I say I don't mean it that way. But from a scientific, rational point of view, what does it matter if the dying person is comfortable or not? I'm talking strictly about internal mechanism here, not family/medical professionals promoting comfort. I am no decorated scientist, but from that point of view, a comfort mechanism would be unnecessary, because either comforted or not, the person still dies -- the end result is the same.
I don't subscribe to any particular religion -- trying to succinctly explain what I do believe is difficult sometimes. Suffice it to say that I believe we do carry on after death; now, whether or not we are sentient or just forms of simple energy, I don't know. I also believe that death is sacred, just as birth is. So maybe, even if there are medical explanations for end-of-life hallucinations, why could that not also be a little nod from the divine? Why would science and spirituality have to be separate?
Looking forward to the responses, thanks again guys :)
Specializes in M/S, Tele, Sub (stepdown), Hospice.
When my aunt was dying, she kept talking to people that had passed away in our family. She kept telling my dad (who is dead) that she wasn't ready to go with him yet. She woke up the next morning half out of bed with her arms stretched out - as if someone had tried to pull her out of bed.
I'd like to believe we get to see our loved ones when we die.
When my dad passed away, I had a really difficult time accepting it. It came quick & sudden, I was only 16. I had been in therapy & in the middle of a session, I was explaining that I had a dream where my dad showed up & then left without even saying goodbye. As I said this dream out loud, I realized that it was how I felt about his passing - I never got a chance to say goodbye. Just as I realized this clarification - my therapist's computer said "goodbye....goodbye" (like when you've been signed out of AOL). We were on the other side of her desk. My therapist looked at me & said, "I'm so sorry, I didn't think my computer was on". After that incident, I felt like I finally had closure - finally after 5-6 years.
None of us really know what's out there but if it helps people die peacefully, then....
I believe that the "veil" between this world and the next thins or lifts when a person is close to death. And loved ones can be seen and heard by the dying one, waiting to welcome them after they pass. I am very spiritual and it is something that I believe, but medicine will find some way to write it off as some psycological condition because they can't explain it, and there is no evidence of it.
But science and medicine can only go so far in understanding the works of the world because they close out the spiritual possibilities behind the causes of life. They know what black holes are, but can't really figure them out. They understand the Big Bang, but fail to know why it happened. They know a baby is created in it's mom, but fail to explain the true force behind what is the builder of the form. They know humans come from monkeys, but can't explain what gives us the intelligent consciousness, and why monkeys today are not developing that. They know that music, colors, and needles poked in certain places can bring about healing, but don't understand why.
Humanity is in it's infancy and really has only begun to understand things in the past 100 years or so. Our technology is fairly new, but it cannot answer all the questions. There is some driving force behind nature, causes and effects, death, and birth, and until we open up our minds to possibilities other than the physical, we will not be able to comprehend very far. We will not see the whole picture, just part of it.
leslie :-D
11,191 Posts
here is a reputable, well-researched website for near-death studies.
Near-Death Experiences and Nearing Death Awareness in the Terminally Ill
"Meeting deceased relatives is almost universal, whereas in the acute setting this occurs only occasionally."
iands.org - Near-Death Experiences and Nearing Death Awareness in the Terminally Ill
leslie