Schools misrepresenting competitiveness?

[skzfoz]

So I just noticed that the college I'm going to absolutely misrepresented how difficult it is to get into the nursing program. They told us that they only allowed something like 24 RNs at a time. However, if you look through the course offerings, there are spots for 84 students in every course. Yes, RN-only courses, I'm not looking at classes offered to LPNs. It's usually 12 classes of 7, some classes are 8-9 where they were short on instructors.

Has anyone else noticed a school misrepresenting how competitive its program was? What would even be the benefit of doing this?

[elkpark]

4.0? really? EVERYONE? Yeah right....well I want to know where all the academic scholars go after graduation for I don't see the 4.0 at the bedside. NO INTERVIEWS why no interviews? You might have good grades and have NO ability to communicate or relate with the general public. ADN schools take NO HIGH school students into programs? WHAT??? I need to move back to Indiana.

How does a 3.87 honors active student fall short of academic requirements? It makes me sick to my stomach

When I asked why I was told....."Because we can". REALLY???? ARE YOU KIDDING ME???? when she applied the GPA was 3.2 ( now 3.5) and SAT math critical reading 1000 (now 1250)....now they want more again....they aren't HARVARD for heavens sake.... each time it's more and more money, it's a ponzi scheme is how I see it. ....Academic elitism. I am so disappointed in nursing and their arrogance right now. I thought it was ridiculous before even more so since I have been visiting collages with my daughter.

Having taught in ADN and BSN programs in perfectly ordinary public schools, I would say it's not "academic elitism" or "arrogance" as much as simple math. Because of the insane increase in popularity and demand for nursing programs, even schools no one has ever heard of are inundated with applications, many more applicants than the programs can accomodate. They have to thin the applicant pool, and decide on a small number of applicants to accept, somehow. And why no interviews?? Because as soon as a school starts using any kind of criterion that is not purely, strictly, numerical and objective, like grades and SAT scores (and "point systems"), some disappointed applicant cries foul and sues. "You're not being fair!" The schools know it's not a good idea to go strictly by the numbers, but they don't feel they have a choice. I've seen it happen (well, I haven't actually seen a lawsuit happen; but I saw a student get admitted after she wasn't admitted on the first go-round and then her daddy had the family attorney write a letter threatening to sue (I saw the letter) -- suddenly, she was admitted.) Very few of these schools have any illusions that they are "HARVARD," but how would you suggest that schools fill 40 "slots" out of a pool of 200 or 300 qualified applicants?

[Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN]

Having taught in ADN and BSN programs in perfectly ordinary public schools, I would say it's not "academic elitism" or "arrogance" as much as simple math. Because of the insane increase in popularity and demand for nursing programs, even schools no one has ever heard of are inundated with applications, many more applicants than the programs can accomodate. They have to thin the applicant pool, and decide on a small number of applicants to accept, somehow. And why no interviews?? Because as soon as a school starts using any kind of criterion that is not purely, strictly, numerical and objective, like grades and SAT scores (and "point systems"), some disappointed applicant cries foul and sues. "You're not being fair!" The schools know it's not a good idea to go strictly by the numbers, but they don't feel they have a choice. I've seen it happen (well, I haven't actually seen a lawsuit happen; but I saw a student get admitted after she wasn't admitted on the first go-round and then her daddy had the family attorney write a letter threatening to sue (I saw the letter) -- suddenly, she was admitted.) Very few of these schools have any illusions that they are "HARVARD," but how would you suggest that schools fill 40 "slots" out of a pool of 200 or 300 qualified applicants?

I hear what you are saying I do....and in this increasingly litigious society I see their point of view as well. I am better now.....I seldom vent but I am frustrated and angry. I talk to my colleagues back in Indiana (still in academics) and they have never heard of changing academic requirements mid application....and they still do interviews. I think the arrogant response verbatim..."because we can".... set my hair on end.

I am frustrated and mad with myself for not being better prepared. For knowing and Not making her take the SAT over and over again until she got perfect scores....she could do it she's so very bright. I saw her scores and they were way above requirements I thought she was good. For not making her take college courses in the evening or in the summer but I wanted her to be a kid. It's crazy that they only take incoming freshman ....another NEW DECISION. It's just crazy to me....no one that isn't fresh out of high school is able to be a nurse??? what is that???

Grrr.....on to another application to make dead lines.

[Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN]

Should we ask the same question of the NCLEX?

ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!!!

One repeat you're out, back to school/refresher, just like the old days. If someone can't pass boards 2 years or more after graduation there's a problem

[Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN]

I respectfully disagree about the academic elitism. Teaching adult learners is much different than teaching straight-out-of-high-school young adults; I think it is reasonable the academic institutions to cater their programs to a specific group for the good of all. Most academic institutions are businesses, for-profit or not, and are run as such. They select the best available candidates and admit them.

I think the issue of grade-inflation is a much worse problem, and you hinted to that as well. This is a major problem from many angles. I have a close friend that is a high school teacher at a prestigious private school and she mentioned over the holidays that 90%!of their students get As and not one student got less than a B-.

How does 90% of a class get A's and NO ONE got less than a B-? what is that? daddy paying the bill and the prestigious school to ensure good grades? I know of a couple of those in MA as well.

I feel misguided by the school guidance counselors. I feel the schools misrepresented themselves....say a minimum is...xyz...subject to change with the applicant pool. I'm good with that, but, Looking at her applications and personally saying she looks good (telling her she is good) Don't lie to my kid. I'm frustrated I stayed out of it allowing her navigate with guidance from a distance.

I was NOT HAPPY this morning and quite recovered this afternoon...but I am still frustrated. She hasn't been denied and I guess I am lucky they called to tell us to re-take the SAT...cross your fingers for an even better score on Saturday.

I still don't like the "Because we can" arrogant response.

[missmollie, ADN, BSN, RN]

I hear what you are saying I do....and in this increasingly litigious society I see their point of view as well. I am better now.....I seldom vent but I am frustrated and angry. I talk to my colleagues back in Indiana (still in academics) and they have never heard of changing academic requirements mid application....and they still do interviews. I think the arrogant response verbatim..."because we can".... set my hair on end.

I am frustrated and mad with myself for not being better prepared. For knowing and Not making her take the SAT over and over again until she got perfect scores....she could do it she's so very bright. I saw her scores and they were way above requirements I thought she was good. For not making her take college courses in the evening or in the summer but I wanted her to be a kid. It's crazy that they only take incoming freshman ....another NEW DECISION. It's just crazy to me....no one that isn't fresh out of high school is able to be a nurse??? what is that???

Grrr.....on to another application to make dead lines.

Esme...

That program doesn't sound great to me. Try a different program. Don't make your daughter retake her SAT's unless she wants to, it's not up to you to ensure her future. She is an adult, and she will make her decisions. I hate to say it, but you sound very competitive, but did you ever consider if maybe she wanted to go to nursing school?

All I hear is angry mom. I'm right there with you, I'd be you in a heartbeat, but my child is only 7 and I have a bit of leniency here. Maybe ask her what she wants to do if she doesn't make it into a nursing school program, and go from there. You might find that she has a passion for nursing, you might find that something completely different interests her. (hugs)

Also, in 11 years, remind me of this conversation.

[NICUmiiki, DNP, NP]

My school will open more slots than there are students to fill them. It doesn't mean anything at my school.

[mze116]

I would like to jump in here...

I applied for nursing school (BSN) at a university in Texas for the spring semester that just started. I participated in a thread on AN, where applicants could compare grades and test scores while waiting to hear for their acceptance/denial.

I was perfectly competitive with all of the folks on the thread with a 3.89 GPA and all A's on my HESI entrance test. I was denied acceptance and I was shocked. I don't mean to sound so arrogant, but I have a previous BS degree in chemistry and minor in biology. People with significantly lower grades got in and I just think it is entirely unfair.

The application criteria of the school is solely based on Prereq GPA, Science GPA and HESI entrance test scores. When I called the school to speak to a counselor for some idea of why I was not accepted and how I could improve my next application, I was told that the counselors do not talk to applicants. Of course there is no explanation of why and it is impossible to reach anyone who can tell me why.

It is interesting to think about the way these schools decide to fill their limited spots. If it is solely based on grades, then I should have been in.

So, what exactly is going on here? Is it that they have 1000 applicants per semester and at $60 per application fee they are making a ton of dough? Do they not advise applicants as to not defer anyone from applying to their unorganized, unfair process?

I don't know, but it makes me pretty sick to think that higher ed has become nothing more than a cash cow. The once prestigious perception I had of this university is now stained, but they are doing it to themselves.

Ultimately, it is my fault for putting all of my eggs into one basket and denying my acceptance to an ADN program. However, I was confident I would be accepted. Also, I have been told over and over again to get my BSN or I won't have a job upon graduation, but that's another topic altogether.

[Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN]

Esme...

That program doesn't sound great to me. Try a different program. Don't make your daughter retake her SAT's unless she wants to, it's not up to you to ensure her future. She is an adult, and she will make her decisions. I hate to say it, but you sound very competitive, but did you ever consider if maybe she wanted to go to nursing school?

All I hear is angry mom. I'm right there with you, I'd be you in a heartbeat, but my child is only 7 and I have a bit of leniency here. Maybe ask her what she wants to do if she doesn't make it into a nursing school program, and go from there. You might find that she has a passion for nursing, you might find that something completely different interests her. (hugs)

Also, in 11 years, remind me of this conversation.

Let me assure you...I have done EVERYTHING do discourage her from nursing. Nursing is a thankless, heart breaking profession. I don't like where nursing is headed right now...especially in the treatment by the administrators/hospitals...but that is a whole other thread. Unfortunately, or fortunately, it IS what she wants. I am not competitive by nature. Frankly, I could care less about the "other guy" it just is a waste of time and energy. If your kid is going to be Beethoven...giving them a piano at 6 moths of age won't make them a maestro. I think that is why this whole process annoys me. That....and in my heart, I have to admit...she's probably going to be a good nurse.

She is NOT an adult she is 17 years old. It IS my duty as a parent to guide her through this process just like any other new phase of their life...I am there to catch her if she falls...just as I did when she started to walk. I will remind you of this when your child is 17. It is an whirlwind year. We are a close family...heck I still call my Mom and cry on her shoulder...it makes me feel better. My dad was always my champion...I miss him so. sigh...

My daughter is just like me...intelligent (sometimes too much for her own good) fiercely independent, opinionated, strong willed, compassionate to a fault, wears her heat on her sleeve, and leans to be a little bit of a perfectionist. She is bright, articulate, poised, and self assured. She honest to a fault. She lights a room when she enters it....she is the first to offer friendship and reach out to anything living to offer a helping hand. Her smile reaches out from her soul. I am so proud of her.

She KNEW that school is competitive and wants THIS school so she has chosen to take the SAT again. She has applied to several...probably a total of 6. My children were out of school from snow and since I hold the credit card...she applies at the table with me as I vent on AN.

Put this post away in an envelope to open when your child is a senior in high school so you can look at it when you are frustrated and smile. ((HUGS))

[Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN]

I would like to jump in here...

I applied for nursing school (BSN) at a university in Texas for the spring semester that just started. I participated in a thread on AN, where applicants could compare grades and test scores while waiting to hear for their acceptance/denial.

I was perfectly competitive with all of the folks on the thread with a 3.89 GPA and all A's on my HESI entrance test. I was denied acceptance and I was shocked. I don't mean to sound so arrogant, but I have a previous BS degree in chemistry and minor in biology. People with significantly lower grades got in and I just think it is entirely unfair.

The application criteria of the school is solely based on Prereq GPA, Science GPA and HESI entrance test scores. When I called the school to speak to a counselor for some idea of why I was not accepted and how I could improve my next application, I was told that the counselors do not talk to applicants. Of course there is no explanation of why and it is impossible to reach anyone who can tell me why.

It is interesting to think about the way these schools decide to fill their limited spots. If it is solely based on grades, then I should have been in.

So, what exactly is going on here? Is it that they have 1000 applicants per semester and at $60 per application fee they are making a ton of dough? Do they not advise applicants as to not defer anyone from applying to their unorganized, unfair process?

I don't know, but it makes me pretty sick to think that higher ed has become nothing more than a cash cow. The once prestigious perception I had of this university is now stained, but they are doing it to themselves.

Ultimately, it is my fault for putting all of my eggs into one basket and denying my acceptance to an ADN program. However, I was confident I would be accepted. Also, I have been told over and over again to get my BSN or I won't have a job upon graduation, but that's another topic altogether.

The schools she has applied for don't do HESI. One ADN program offers their version of the TEAS to get into their "pre-health" curriculum which puts you into line for the program. AFTER prereqs and a 3.5 GPA...another test, another fee. then you re-apply for the nursing program the following year...another fee. Then you apply for the RN BSN after graduation and passing boards (another set of fees) for another fee.

Cash cow is a good analogy.

[mze116]

This endless string of fees and bureaucracy is EXTREMELY off putting. At the end of all of the hard work for awesome grades, test retakes, applications and fees, it doesn't matter anyway because they just pick from their magic hat who gets in the program with no explanation of why or how they go about their process.

I feel for your daughter. It must be really hard to just be getting out of high school to face this crap. It's a harsh reality to realize that these schools have no method to their madness. Changing criteria in the middle of an application period is just insane. It's disgusting.

I wish the best for you and your daughter and I pray for her to make that magic SAT score they are looking for. I just hope once I finally get accepted into a program and graduate that the job interview process isn't this ridiculous, but I have a feeling it might be.

As my cynicism increases....

[missmollie, ADN, BSN, RN]

Esme, I am sorry that she wants it so badly and that her experience, thus far, has been poor.

I hope she gets that acceptance letter from a school she really wants to attend! Fingers crossed for a better SAT score :)

[classicdame, MSN, EdD]

why the Swedish flag? My son lives in Stockholm and it is SOOOOOO beautiful