In need of some desperate advice. I currently have a NP job working at a hospital 3 -12 shifts I have been working as a NP for about 5 months but the pay is 115K per year. I was working as an RN for 10 years and making 135K per year. I tried to negotiate the pay and it was not accepted, I thought I was able to manage the pay difference but it is too steep a difference. Should I leave the NP job and go back to the RN job, im still working there per diem but I end up work 4- 12hr shifts a week and I have 3 small children. The NP job is easy, and everyone is so helpful as a new grad very supportive but its very far from my house and the pay is not helping me. any advice? I would just feel like a quitter leaving. Do employee consider 6 months as experience?
Ironically, I make quite a bit less in psychiatry than I did ten years ago. The only reason I still do the job is because I can do it from home. This really outweighs anything else.
Specializes in Psychiatric and Mental Health NP (PMHNP).
FolksBtrippin said:
I'm in NP school right now, and I appreciate your post. I have decided not to leave my RN position until I get something I really want. It seems like the pay and the location are the big problems for you, but I am encouraged to hear that you enjoy the work. It is completely reasonable to want to be paid more as an NP, it is a greater level of responsibility. It is wrong to say that you should not be paid more than you were as an RN with 10 years of experience. You are now an NP with 10 years of RN experience. So you should be paid more. Best of luck to you, and please update us.
You are in a rough position because the best time to negotiate pay is while you are interviewing, rather than after.
This isn't about right or wrong. It's about what the market will pay a new grad NP. And a new grad NP has ZERO provider experience.
Specializes in Psychiatry, Community, Nurse Manager, hospice.
FullGlass said:
This isn't about right or wrong. It's about what the market will pay a new grad NP. And a new grad NP has ZERO provider experience.
The market does not pay NPs less than RNs, thus the assertion is "wrong", in other words "incorrect". That is why the OP is either going to leave this job or get a raise. Because the rate is not a fair market rate.
When everyone and their mother is enrolled at Walden's part-time 100% acceptance rate "become an NP in 18 months" online program, yeah, the salary is going to suck. The profession is being watered down and oversupplied. I will not be surprised if RN salary is consistently higher moving forward.
Specializes in Psychiatric and Mental Health NP (PMHNP).
FolksBtrippin said:
The market does not pay NPs less than RNs, thus the assertion is "wrong", in other words "incorrect". That is why the OP is either going to leave this job or get a raise. Because the rate is not a fair market rate.
You are not even an NP, yet you are arguing with me, an NP? The OP is making a generally accepted salary for a new grad NP. Some employers will pay more, some a little less. Let me say this again: a NEW GRAD NP may make less than what they were making as an RN. That is b/c a new grad NP has ZERO NP experience. The OP could look for another job with better pay, but she has only been at that job for 5 mos. It is not a good idea to switch jobs until one has at least 1 year of experience. After the first 1-2 years as an NP, pay can go up considerably for the smart job searcher.
In some areas, RNs can make a lot more than a new grad NP. Here in CA, RNs can make up to $200K per year or even a bit more. I've seen RN pay up to $220K per year, as an employee (not a traveler). NO employer is going to pay new grad NP that kind of money.
So, the moral is that RNs contemplating a change to become an NP need to do the research on NP pay in the area they plan to work in.
You are not even an NP, yet you are arguing with me, an NP? The OP is making a generally accepted salary for a new grad NP. Some employers will pay more, some a little less. Let me say this again: a NEW GRAD NP may make less than what they were making as an RN. That is b/c a new grad NP has ZERO NP experience. The OP could look for another job with better pay, but she has only been at that job for 5 mos. It is not a good idea to switch jobs until one has at least 1 year of experience. After the first 1-2 years as an NP, pay can go up considerably for the smart job searcher.
In some areas, RNs can make a lot more than a new grad NP. Here in CA, RNs can make up to $200K per year or even a bit more. I've seen RN pay up to $220K per year, as an employee (not a traveler). NO employer is going to pay new grad NP that kind of money.
So, the moral is that RNs contemplating a change to become an NP need to do the research on NP pay in the area they plan to work in.
Important to add to this the different calculus. For nurses, they are REQUIRED for the hospital to run. They need X nurses for the hospital. You've seen hospital bills? Hospitals that are for profit will pay whatever they need for RNs to keep those numbers flowing. A night in the hospital can cosy $5,000. Times that by 10 patients on a floor you have $50K in one night. Paying 2 nurses $1500 to keep them alive = pennies on the dollar for the profit.
For providers, the calculus is different. You only make what you see. A new grad FNP might see 12 new patients in a day. They get maybe $100 per patient from insurance. This is $1200. Account for people who no show or don't pay their bill or insurance scrapes it back, down to $1000. Now add in the facility and other staff. Even giving the NP HALF the profit, thats $400-500 a day. Now down the line when they are experienced and can see 25 patients a day, they may deserve a much higher pay. But as a slow new grad, an NP is not "generating" the money yet to cover their salary + a profit at $200K+.
So why do physicians start higher? They did residency, they can swoop in and start with that 20-25 patients day 1. And they get higher insurance reimbursement rates. And can bill for procedures the NP cannot do. The MD did residency for 4-5 years making $50K a year while they learned the ropes. The NP is still coming out ahead making $120K as a new grad doing the same.
Specializes in Psychiatry, Community, Nurse Manager, hospice.
MentalKlarity said:
Important to add to this the different calculus. For nurses, they are REQUIRED for the hospital to run. They need X nurses for the hospital. You've seen hospital bills? Hospitals that are for profit will pay whatever they need for RNs to keep those numbers flowing. A night in the hospital can cosy $5,000. Times that by 10 patients on a floor you have $50K in one night. Paying 2 nurses $1500 to keep them alive = pennies on the dollar for the profit.
For providers, the calculus is different. You only make what you see. A new grad FNP might see 12 new patients in a day. They get maybe $100 per patient from insurance. This is $1200. Account for people who no show or don't pay their bill or insurance scrapes it back, down to $1000. Now add in the facility and other staff. Even giving the NP HALF the profit, thats $400-500 a day. Now down the line when they are experienced and can see 25 patients a day, they may deserve a much higher pay. But as a slow new grad, an NP is not "generating" the money yet to cover their salary + a profit at $200K+.
So why do physicians start higher? They did residency, they can swoop in and start with that 20-25 patients day 1. And they get higher insurance reimbursement rates. And can bill for procedures the NP cannot do. The MD did residency for 4-5 years making $50K a year while they learned the ropes. The NP is still coming out ahead making $120K as a new grad doing the same.
Generally NPs can expect to make more money than RNs. California is an exception. They have the highest paid RNs and very restricted practice for NPs. Also the only state with mandated nurse patient ratios. I would not work in CA as an NP. I think it's a great place to work for RNs. If you are a CA NP, I can understand why you'd be salty.
A market where NPs are paid less than RNs will drive NPs out. That's just business. You might be able to sell a slightly lower salary with better working conditions, especially in a pink-collar field like nursing. But there's a limit to that. And taking a 20K pay cut with greater responsibility and presumably more student loans is just not going to fly for most people. You will lose those people to their RN jobs. It's just common sense. That is what you are seeing in this post. There is no argument to be had. The OP is either going to get a raise or leave for her RN job. It isn't our place to say "suck it up!" She doesn't have to suck it up. She can take her skillset elsewhere.
I appreciate the bit about productivity, and new NPs needing time to get there. But it's not like employers don't have to take the hit while they're getting a new person up to speed. They absolutely do. And it's because of what I just explained. If they don't pay more than what the NP can make as an RN, they can't keep the NP long enough to make a profit.
Specializes in Psychiatric and Mental Health NP (PMHNP).
FolksBtrippin said:
Generally NPs can expect to make more money than RNs. California is an exception. They have the highest paid RNs and very restricted practice for NPs. Also the only state with mandated nurse patient ratios. I would not work in CA as an NP. I think it's a great place to work for RNs. If you are a CA NP, I can understand why you'd be salty.
A market where NPs are paid less than RNs will drive NPs out. That's just business. You might be able to sell a slightly lower salary with better working conditions, especially in a pink-collar field like nursing. But there's a limit to that. And taking a 20K pay cut with greater responsibility and presumably more student loans is just not going to fly for most people. You will lose those people to their RN jobs. It's just common sense. That is what you are seeing in this post. There is no argument to be had. The OP is either going to get a raise or leave for her RN job. It isn't our place to say "suck it up!" She doesn't have to suck it up. She can take her skillset elsewhere.
I appreciate the bit about productivity, and new NPs needing time to get there. But it's not like employers don't have to take the hit while they're getting a new person up to speed. They absolutely do. And it's because of what I just explained. If they don't pay more than what the NP can make as an RN, they can't keep the NP long enough to make a profit.
It has been explained repeatedly what the pay is, in reality, right now, for new grad NPs. There is no shortage of NPs or people who want to be NPs. As has been explained repeatedly, a new grad NP with several years of RN experience MAY take a pay cut on their first NP job. However, as has also been explained repeatedly, after 1 to 2 years, their NP pay can increase significantly with their 2nd job. So yes, a new grad NP with RN experience may indeed have to "suck it up," regardless of their RN experience level. That is why I even put up a post for RNs who are thinking of becoming an NP to think long and hard about doing so. They need to research the pay for a new grad NP in their area. Like it or not, right or wrong, that is the way it is. The market has spoken.
Specializes in Psychiatry, Community, Nurse Manager, hospice.
FullGlass said:
It has been explained repeatedly what the pay is, in reality, right now, for new grad NPs. There is no shortage of NPs or people who want to be NPs. As has been explained repeatedly, a new grad NP with several years of RN experience MAY take a pay cut on their first NP job. However, as has also been explained repeatedly, after 1 to 2 years, their NP pay can increase significantly with their 2nd job. So yes, a new grad NP with RN experience may indeed have to "suck it up," regardless of their RN experience level. That is why I even put up a post for RNs who are thinking of becoming an NP to think long and hard about doing so. They need to research the pay for a new grad NP in their area. Like it or not, right or wrong, that is the way it is. The market has spoken.
Specializes in Psychiatric and Mental Health NP (PMHNP).
FolksBtrippin said:
You are not the market, FullGlass.
I never said I was. I am providing information on the general market. There is a difference. But hey, believe what you want. You're not an NP, so I don't understand why you keep going on about this. If you are planning to become an NP, do the research to find out what new grad NPs are making your area, to avoid an unpleasant surprise when you graduate.
Let me elaborate: if you are new grad NP, and in your geographic area, new grad NPs make between $110K and $125K per year, then that is going to be your salary range for your first NP job. If you demand more than that, you are probably not going to get a job. If you are currently an RN making $140K per year with OT, then you are going to take a pay cut for at least 1 year. If you can't afford that, then do not spend thousands of dollars and a lot of time to become an NP.
Look at job listings to get an idea of salary ranges, especially if they accept new grads. Try to talk to some NPs to find out what new and experienced NPs are making in your desired specialty. If you are in NP school, ask faculty members. The better NP schools will have career preparation and also discuss what to ask for in your first NP job. They may help you get in touch with recent grads and alumni to discuss the NP career and pay further.
Complain about new grad NP pay all you want, but that is as helpful as complaining about the weather.
Specializes in Psychiatry, Community, Nurse Manager, hospice.
FullGlass said:
I never said I was. I am providing information on the general market. There is a difference. But hey, believe what you want. You're not an NP, so I don't understand why you keep going on about this. If you are planning to become an NP, do the research to find out what new grad NPs are making your area, to avoid an unpleasant surprise when you graduate.
Let me elaborate: if you are new grad NP, and in your geographic area, new grad NPs make between $110K and $125K per year, then that is going to be your salary range for your first NP job. If you demand more than that, you are probably not going to get a job. If you are currently an RN making $140K per year with OT, then you are going to take a pay cut for at least 1 year. If you can't afford that, then do not spend thousands of dollars and a lot of time to become an NP.
Look at job listings to get an idea of salary ranges, especially if they accept new grads. Try to talk to some NPs to find out what new and experienced NPs are making in your desired specialty. If you are in NP school, ask faculty members. The better NP schools will have career preparation and also discuss what to ask for in your first NP job. They may help you get in touch with recent grads and alumni to discuss the NP career and pay further.
Complain about new grad NP pay all you want, but that is as helpful as complaining about the weather.
I agree that people should research NP salaries in their area and not take your word for it.
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CuriousConundrum
44 Posts
Ironically, I make quite a bit less in psychiatry than I did ten years ago. The only reason I still do the job is because I can do it from home. This really outweighs anything else.