Need all of your input before possibly my last shift here today:
My hospital is about 4-5 blocks from the gulf and right in the path of Rita which is currently 170-175 mph winds.
They keep reporting on TV how the hospitals here are evacuating which they are, our last patient was air lifted out last night.
But...they are making us stay here and ride it out for the stragglers who didn't follow the mandatory evacuation.
We have absolutely no patients in this hospital but they refuse to close it and are keeping our ER open which consequently means that we need OR, ICU, etc. beds open as well.
The storm surge is expected to be quite high.
I'm thinking of leaving here today after my shift is over and evacuating and will probably get fired.
I would love to run the DVD concerning the small amount of damage, that seems to be implied.
I did not imply there was a small amount of damage in Charley. I said that Charley was not a big rain-maker, nor did it generate a storm surge that was NO's undoing. Charley surprised everyone with its sudden right-hook turn and its lack of a storm surge. Had Charley included a big storm surge, I shudder to think of the damage. The wind damage was quite horrible enough.
I'd personally rather ride out a wind-maker than a storm surge. Sorry if I didn't make myself clear on that. Wind is terrible, yes, but very unpredictable and so it's less easy to run from. OTOH, storm surge is very predictable.
The #2 weather-related cause of death in the US is caused not by wind, but floods. Keep in mind that only 6 inches of fast-moving water can knock a person down; two feet of fast-running water can wash away a two-ton car. Now picture the normal wave action that's generated by the ocean and throw in tons of heavy debris and what do you have? The crumbled remains of concrete buildings in Gulfport from Katrina.
CONCRETE buildings crumbled. I cannot imagine the force of that storm surge!
The OP said that he/she was a few miles from the Gulf. Rita flooded up to 15 miles inland from the Gulf in some areas.
Rita was supposed to be generating a storm surge similar to Katrina, and just off the coast, was generating 50-foot waves. That's about 3 times the height of my home. Coming ashore, the storm generated a 10 foot storm surge.
I wouldn't even want to be out on a boat in that, let alone trying to hope that the water didn't destroy the building I was in! If you consider that water weighs about 1680 lbs per cubic yard, it's no wonder that people were told to evacuate for good reason.
The No-Name storm did more damage than most named hurricanes in our area, whereas Elana couldn't make up her mind and was all over the place in her track.
The point is, they're all different and so they all suffer from some degree of unpredictablility. The Red Cross and local Emergency Management teams both acknowledge a fact commonly not told the general public: they assume that there WILL be casualties, before, during and after the storm. Disaster mitigation is all about minimizing these casualties. The reason the evacuation orders are mandated is to minimize death and injury.
Casualties can happen from a lot of sources. You could suffer anaphylaxis from ant bites trying to get out of flood waters, West Nile, tetorifice, a wound infection, or drown trying to drive over washed-out roads to a hospital that has no refrigeration, no electricity, and no ability to perform any services besides your basic first aid. One of our more celebrated patients was a young hero who got flesh-eating bacteria trying to help neighbors evacuate floodwaters a few years back.
I guess another question I have about nurses keeping the hospitals open is that even if some health-care workers stayed behind to help, how much help could we be without the vital necessities? Imagine a hospital unable to do much more than bandage wounds and there you'd have a good picture of what would actually be available after a hurricane.
How would X-ray machines work without power? And what about antibiotics, so many of them have to be refrigerated. Even sterilization supplies wouldn't hold up long in the heat. What about water? Sewer? Nutrition? I mean, seriously, what kind of medical care would we be able to provide?
Grannynurse, I'm just curious. During the blackouts and snowstorms you endured were there looters with guns and knives in your hospital? Were people getting carjacked who tried to evacuate the city? Just wondering?
Well, following the snow storm, no one was moving around the city except those on snowmobiles. And any patients were transported to our facility by those with them. And we did have patients bought to our ER. And since I was working in NYC during both of the first two blackouts and there was wide spread looting, the police handled it. And unlike New Orleans, which was abandon by our national government, and drug seekers were forced, after several days without their fix, to seek where ever they could (not saying that was right). But then our government learned from its failures with New Orleans and postKatrina. They prepositioned everything. And moved on a dime. Color me cynical but I wonder if the heading of Rita, towards our beloved leaders home state, had anything to do with his prompt prepositioning. Nah, I'm just being cynical.
But you do raise an interesting question. NYC would be unable to evacuate if a Charlie, Katrina or Roita were head its waY, EVEN WITH ADVANCED WARNING. Bridges and tunnels would be unable to handle the traffic. And there are those millions without cars or even the ability to drive, they rely on public transportation. It is actually being wrked on, at this very instance. Northerns don't like to leave things to chance,
Actually, the federal government did not move fast enough with Rita. In Port Arthur, TX they couldn't get enough buses to evacuate people. They even had to leave some patients behind in their hospitals. In Beaumont, TX hospital evacuations started after the storm due to no power and no water. You would think that people would learn from Katrina, but they haven't.
To answer your question, no my daughter is not a nurse. She is considered in the public safety portion of her county. And none were mandated to remain, by the county. Hospital staff was asked to report, prior to landfall, to the two open facilities. And, it was my understanding that the hospital, on Galvestan, was not empty. I have a question. What would you think of police officers and firemen who remain behind, after their town had been completely evacuated? Would you think they were taking unnecessary risks and putting themselves in harms way?
Grannynurse
Actually, I wasn't asking if your daughter was a nurse. I was just wondering, if she were a nurse, would you be OK with her staying behind during a mandatory evacuation in an empty hospital, just in case people who disregarded the mandatory orders needed medical attention? I guess what I was trying to ask in a clumsy fashion is, would you be comfortable with those you love staying behind, putting themselves in harm's way, for those people who are purposely putting themselves in harm's way by not evacuating?
I also saw the physician interviewed who was at a hospital in Galveston, and you're correct, they still had a very few patients, and supposedly had all-volunteer staff who were staying. But I'm not sure that this hospital is the one that the OP works at; she didn't say she was in Galveston. So her hospital might be a different one. I am taking her comments at face value, that her hospital had NO patients.
I guess that I think that we all have free choice, and if someone actively decides to ignore mandatory evacuation orders, they have the right to put themselves in danger. But I don't think they have the right to put me, or anyone else, in danger also.
As to your question about police and firefighters evacuating, this would be a call for the officials to make, and if it were deemed prudent for their safety to all retreat to the closest safest area, then I have no problem with it, and would be relieved to know that they would be safe. That way, they would be available to come in afterwards ASAP, instead of possibly being injured themselves.
Actually, I wasn't asking if your daughter was a nurse. I was just wondering, if she were a nurse, would you be OK with her staying behind during a mandatory evacuation in an empty hospital, just in case people who disregarded the mandatory orders needed medical attention? I guess what I was trying to ask in a clumsy fashion is, would you be comfortable with those you love staying behind, putting themselves in harm's way, for those people who are purposely putting themselves in harm's way by not evacuating?
I also saw the physician interviewed who was at a hospital in Galveston, and you're correct, they still had a very few patients, and supposedly had all-volunteer staff who were staying. But I'm not sure that this hospital is the one that the OP works at; she didn't say she was in Galveston. So her hospital might be a different one. I am taking her comments at face value, that her hospital had NO patients.
I guess that I think that we all have free choice, and if someone actively decides to ignore mandatory evacuation orders, they have the right to put themselves in danger. But I don't think they have the right to put me, or anyone else, in danger also.
As to your question about police and firefighters evacuating, this would be a call for the officials to make, and if it were deemed prudent for their safety to all retreat to the closest safest area, then I have no problem with it, and would be relieved to know that they would be safe. That way, they would be available to come in afterwards ASAP, instead of possibly being injured themselves.
To be perfectly honest with you, I have never been mandated to remain in any dangerous situation. During emergencies, I have been asked to come into work early or on my day off. None of my employers has ever mandated any employee report to work or be fired, there is too much of a liability issue with mandating such an issue. I have worked in both the public and private sector. And I have worked as a staff nurse and in administration during emergencies. I question any employer, public or private, would mandate a person report to their place of employment. Or threaten them with job loss if they do not. Most of these so called reports rank up there with urban legends ones. However, if anyone can provide actual data to support this issue, please post it. Now, it should be verifiable data.
In response to your question concerning my daughter, yes I would feel comfortable with her remaining behind if she chose to do so. And I would be remaining with her. People do stupid things but I do not believe that remaining behind, to help anyone ill or injuried, of those stupid people, is foolish or wrong. It is a moral obligation, as far as I am concerned. I do not view myself as doing anything heroic or out of the ordinary, just perhaps having my own sense of moral responsibility.
And there is a difference between your generation and mine, a sense of duty and commitment.
I'm 45, so I'm not sure which "generation" I would fit into, but boy, do I take offense at that comment. Mandatory evacuation means get out. NOW. Public services will NOT be available to you should you decide to stay. If someone cares so little for their lives that they will not make sure they are in a safe area, I certainly would not risk mine for them once disaster strikes.
I can almost guarantee that the same nurses on this forum who would not stay in an empty hospital "just in case" would stay without a second thought, say if an earthquake hit southern CA and the ER was being overrun with patients while they were on duty. I'd bet most of them would do whatever they could to get to the hospital to help out if they were off duty.
I'm 45, so I'm not sure which "generation" I would fit into, but boy, do I take offense at that comment. Mandatory evacuation means get out. NOW. Public services will NOT be available to you should you decide to stay. If someone cares so little for their lives that they will not make sure they are in a safe area, I certainly would not risk mine for them once disaster strikes.
I can almost guarantee that the same nurses on this forum who would not stay in an empty hospital "just in case" would stay without a second thought, say if an earthquake hit southern CA and the ER was being overrun with patients while they were on duty. I'd bet most of them would do whatever they could to get to the hospital to help out if they were off duty.
How dare you say that duty and commitment only belongs to one age group.
Sorry if I offended you but I never stated that duty and commitment belongs to one age group. Mandatory evacuation does not mean that anyone who does not not want to leave can be forced out. I am aware of no law enforcement agency that will force anyone out of their home. And since the military is not put into the law enforcement position prior to a hurricane, that lets them off the hook too.
And I guess I am taking it the wrong way when you refer to those who care so little about their own lives. I met two of them, in the ER following Charlie passing thru our community. They lived in a mobile home park, one that was almost totally destroyed as a result of the Cat 4 winds (so much for wind damage). Their refusal to evacuate was because of two dogs they owned. Foolish they were but it was their right to be foolish. However, as a member of the community that is dedicated to protecting those who make foolish choices, I will stay, in my facility until it was empty. Then I would evacuate. Not before.
Sorry if I offended you but I never stated that duty and commitment belongs to one age group. Mandatory evacuation does not mean that anyone who does not not want to leave can be forced out. I am aware of no law enforcement agency that will force anyone out of their home. And since the military is not put into the law enforcement position prior to a hurricane, that lets them off the hook too.
And I guess I am taking it the wrong way when you refer to those who care so little about their own lives. I met two of them, in the ER following Charlie passing thru our community. They lived in a mobile home park, one that was almost totally destroyed as a result of the Cat 4 winds (so much for wind damage). Their refusal to evacuate was because of two dogs they owned. Foolish they were but it was their right to be foolish. However, as a member of the community that is dedicated to protecting those who make foolish choices, I will stay, in my facility until it was empty. Then I would evacuate. Not before.
Grannynurse :balloons:
Once again, I have to ask:
I guess another question I have about nurses keeping the hospitals open is that even if some health-care workers stayed behind to help, how much help could we be without the vital necessities? Imagine a hospital unable to do much more than bandage wounds and there you'd have a good picture of what would actually be available after a hurricane.
How would X-ray machines work without power? And what about antibiotics, so many of them have to be refrigerated. Even sterilization supplies wouldn't hold up long in the heat. What about water? Sewer? Nutrition? I mean, seriously, what kind of medical care would we be able to provide?
I guess another question I have about nurses keeping the hospitals open is that even if some health-care workers stayed behind to help, how much help could we be without the vital necessities? Imagine a hospital unable to do much more than bandage wounds and there you'd have a good picture of what would actually be available after a hurricane.
How would X-ray machines work without power? And what about antibiotics, so many of them have to be refrigerated. Even sterilization supplies wouldn't hold up long in the heat. What about water? Sewer? Nutrition? I mean, seriously, what kind of medical care would we be able to provide?
Good questions. Now do you want the stock answers? I can respond in relation to what happen after Charlie or what I viewed, happening in New Orleans or what happen following Rita. Facilities generally are well stocked prior to a hurricane. The major mistakes, following Katrina, was the location of generators. Most facilities locate their portables in the same general area as their permanent ones, a major mistake, since they can be flooded, as they were in New Orleans. Following Charlie, although our two facilities lost their roofs, emergency treatment was available within 12 hours. Patients needing hospitalization (of which I was one) were treated, stablized and transported, via ambulance or helicopter, to either Lee or Sarasota County facilities, which had full electrical power. Now, if what had happen, in New Orleans, had happen in Chalotte County, that is the governments, county, state and federal, had failed in their responsibilities, I might have been treated, the greater question would have been would I have survived? One would be surprised at the amount of care one can provide, even in a damaged facility. And how important that initial care and treatment is, in stabilizing and then transporting.
It appears that everone is using what happen, in New Orleans, without examining, why it happen. Why did it take so long for a response to a critical situation? Why did the hospitals not move their portable generators prior to Katrina? What were the failures of the public and private sectors? What was the failure of the federal government? And the last question is the most important one, seeing the pre-positioning that took place prior to Rita and the evacuating of hospitals, nursing homes and extended care facilities. Rita clearly demonstrated that moving patients out of harns way, is possible with federal assistance. It also demonstrated that even the availability of medical assistance, no matter how it is impacted post-event, is equally important.
Most of those who are talking about 'getting out od Dodge' are in the 20s and 30s. Those that are willing to stay, in their 40s and 50s.
So basically those of us who are young tend to punk out and run when things get tough? What about the fact that I stayed for four days at my workplace during an icestorm? (BTW, we were using one of the retirement cottages to sleep since staff had to work in rotations, so we had to navigate an iced-over parking lot in order to do so.) We spring chickens are tougher than y'all think.
My conclusion was based on several bits of information. One, Galvestan was where Rita was projected to hit. Two, no other city or town, which did not evacuate, was located that close to the Gulf of Mexico, not even here in Florida. Three, he never answered any of my questions.
I was an assistant administrator, in a 450 bed teaching hospital in NYC. And covered a 1500 bed county hospital, across the street from my own, on my on-call hours. So, I do have experience in the running of a large facility. As a matter, we experience a total city wide melt down, our facility was short staffed, without power and full of patients, unlike the several patients in Galvestan.
And there is a difference between your generation and mine, a sense of duty and commitment. It might interest you to know that my daughter fully supports your point of view. Love her dearly but I disagree with her on this and strongly.
Grannynurse :balloons:
I don't know where you are getting your info but you might want to verify your sources. First, It was just projected to hit the Texas Gulf Coast. OP doesn't even say that he is in Texas. And, don't know whether or not you know, but there are other towns besides Galveston all along the coast and alot of them have hospitals. That area just got the most coverage because, well it is the largest area with the most people. Kinda like with Katrina, New Orleans got the majority of the coverage because it was the largest most high profile area. I can tell ya first hand that there where more people effected in other areas as my in-laws and their friends in Laurel Mississippi where greatly effected by the storm. They where lucky not to loose their house but did suffer damage at both their home and their businesses. They did not have electricity for over 2 weeks. Did you hear anything on the news about Laurel Mississippi? I sure didn't. Second, Galveston DID evacuate with the majority of the Houston/Galveston population coming here to Austin and the surrounding Hill Country area. I don't know what kind of coverage yall got in Florida but the whole hurricane and evacuations were handled MUCH different here than it was in Louisiana. OUR Governor really stepped up to the plate on this one! Towns all along the Texas Gulf Coast where evacuated. Third, OP has disappeared from this discussion so let us hope that he did not answer your questions because he got to safety.
Sorry if I offended you but I never stated that duty and commitment belongs to one age group. Mandatory evacuation does not mean that anyone who does not not want to leave can be forced out. I am aware of no law enforcement agency that will force anyone out of their home. And since the military is not put into the law enforcement position prior to a hurricane, that lets them off the hook too.
And I guess I am taking it the wrong way when you refer to those who care so little about their own lives. I met two of them, in the ER following Charlie passing thru our community. They lived in a mobile home park, one that was almost totally destroyed as a result of the Cat 4 winds (so much for wind damage). Their refusal to evacuate was because of two dogs they owned. Foolish they were but it was their right to be foolish. However, as a member of the community that is dedicated to protecting those who make foolish choices, I will stay, in my facility until it was empty. Then I would evacuate. Not before.
Grannynurse :balloons:
No, you never directly say that duty and commitment belongs to one age group but you imply OVER AND OVER that people younger than yourself do not have a sense of duty and commitment. Please re-read the first sentence of the first post that I quoted. THAT is offensive! Also, I am willing to bet that there are many people of YOUR generation that feel the same way that I do as well.
Again, I don't know what kind of coverage that you got in Florida but things where handled much differently here. It was made quite clear here that please do not stay in your homes because of pets, BRING THEM WITH YOU! Accommodations where made for people to evacuate with their pets. Many of the shelters here in Central Texas and surrounding areas made room for evacuated pets and there was also information made well known of families that where willing to take in evacuated pets and care for them until their owners where in a position to take them back. I will say it again, the state of Texas and it's residents really stepped up the plate.
I went in to nursing to help the sick. I LOVE what I do. I was never told that nursing was a profession "dedicated to protecting those who make foolish choices". I am not willing to let others foolish choices effect my own especially when it comes to my LIFE. You also say "I will stay, in my facility until it was empty. Then I would evacuate.". Well OP states that his facility IS empty so why are you chastising him for wanting to leave? I thought that you where ganna stick around to help those that decided to ride it out?
You know, I felt really bad for those police officers who had to go and arrest someone who chose to SWIM IN THE SURF with a Cat 5 hurricane coming. According to the news, he was drunk and belligerent. Too bad law enforcement had to stay down there to rescue fools like him.
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UM Review RN, ASN, RN
1 Article; 5,163 Posts
I did not imply there was a small amount of damage in Charley. I said that Charley was not a big rain-maker, nor did it generate a storm surge that was NO's undoing. Charley surprised everyone with its sudden right-hook turn and its lack of a storm surge. Had Charley included a big storm surge, I shudder to think of the damage. The wind damage was quite horrible enough.
I'd personally rather ride out a wind-maker than a storm surge. Sorry if I didn't make myself clear on that. Wind is terrible, yes, but very unpredictable and so it's less easy to run from. OTOH, storm surge is very predictable.
The #2 weather-related cause of death in the US is caused not by wind, but floods. Keep in mind that only 6 inches of fast-moving water can knock a person down; two feet of fast-running water can wash away a two-ton car. Now picture the normal wave action that's generated by the ocean and throw in tons of heavy debris and what do you have? The crumbled remains of concrete buildings in Gulfport from Katrina.
CONCRETE buildings crumbled. I cannot imagine the force of that storm surge!
The OP said that he/she was a few miles from the Gulf. Rita flooded up to 15 miles inland from the Gulf in some areas.
Rita was supposed to be generating a storm surge similar to Katrina, and just off the coast, was generating 50-foot waves. That's about 3 times the height of my home. Coming ashore, the storm generated a 10 foot storm surge.
I wouldn't even want to be out on a boat in that, let alone trying to hope that the water didn't destroy the building I was in! If you consider that water weighs about 1680 lbs per cubic yard, it's no wonder that people were told to evacuate for good reason.
The No-Name storm did more damage than most named hurricanes in our area, whereas Elana couldn't make up her mind and was all over the place in her track.
The point is, they're all different and so they all suffer from some degree of unpredictablility. The Red Cross and local Emergency Management teams both acknowledge a fact commonly not told the general public: they assume that there WILL be casualties, before, during and after the storm. Disaster mitigation is all about minimizing these casualties. The reason the evacuation orders are mandated is to minimize death and injury.
Casualties can happen from a lot of sources. You could suffer anaphylaxis from ant bites trying to get out of flood waters, West Nile, tetorifice, a wound infection, or drown trying to drive over washed-out roads to a hospital that has no refrigeration, no electricity, and no ability to perform any services besides your basic first aid. One of our more celebrated patients was a young hero who got flesh-eating bacteria trying to help neighbors evacuate floodwaters a few years back.
I guess another question I have about nurses keeping the hospitals open is that even if some health-care workers stayed behind to help, how much help could we be without the vital necessities? Imagine a hospital unable to do much more than bandage wounds and there you'd have a good picture of what would actually be available after a hurricane.
How would X-ray machines work without power? And what about antibiotics, so many of them have to be refrigerated. Even sterilization supplies wouldn't hold up long in the heat. What about water? Sewer? Nutrition? I mean, seriously, what kind of medical care would we be able to provide?
References:
http://www.weather.com/safeside/flood/facts.html
http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/HAW2/english/inland_flood.shtml