Retired nurses displacing new grads?

[lmnop]

My daughter is in the process of applying for a BSN program (the competitiveness of these programs could be the subject of another post). Even though she has a 3.8 her first semester and a 4.0 in science so far, the supplementary criteria and assumption of B's for classes in progress make this Fall not so sure of a thing. The nursing information session was attended by very few college age kids. Many attendees appeared to be on second careers with possibly previous Bachelors Degrees in other majors. It seems like the supplementary criteria could work in their favor. It is anticipated that less than 10% of the applicants will be admitted into the program.

Anyway, the difficulty of just getting into the program has caused me to do a little checking on the career. I was amazed to find that there is an abundance of nurses right now. Most people that you talk to think that there is still a nursing shortage. I've seen a few articles stating that foreign nurses are at least somewhat responsible for the nursing glut. And I've seen a few articles talk about how retired nurses are returning to the field leaving few opportunities for new grads. I've also read, though, there is still a projected nursing shortage in the not so distant future.

I'm posting to get some insight from all walks of this field. Potential nursing students, nearing grads, recent grads, current nurses, Human Resources Specialists, Hospital Administrators, and anyone else that I left out that might have some insight into the current and future nursing job market.

I do have some special questions, though, for the HR's and administrators out there: If the future does have a likely shortage, why wouldn't you make long term hiring decisions? To hire a retiree back into the system only gets you a few years worth of work. At the same time, you have several unemployed graduating classes that will likely lose their skills. The expense to educate these classes was not only incurred by the student and possibly the government, but from what I understand, from many hospitals. The program that my daughter is applying to used to have twice as many seats available due to local hospital grants. I bring that up just to show that hospitals have invested in these new grads. Why would they let not just the long term capacity of nursing go by the wayside, but why would they let their direct investments get exchanged for the short term work that a retiree can provide? And, I would imagine that an experienced nurse returning to your hospital commands a much higher wage than a new grad. There may be more training involved, but it would seem that it would be more than worth it in the long (and maybe even the short run). I guess my questions are: is there truth to the notion that retirees are displacing new grads? What about foreign nurses? If so, what is the logic behind it?

[Testa Rosa, RN]

What a great mom you must be doing this level of research for your child. Lucky Girl!

You bring up some of the questions I've been asking myself. I'm a recent grad getting ready to sit for boards. I love nursing and hope I can find somewhere to practice my craft near my home and family. I wish I had discovered my true purpose earlier in life. I am a second career student and am very discouraged about my job prospects right now, but I know I want to be a nurse and will find a way.

If this is the field your daughter is meant to be in, then she too will find her way. Plus, if she is young with no responsibilities for a mortgage and kids, she can move to areas that are still hiring new grads. This is a tough time for any profession, not just nursing. And, by the time your daughter graduates the whole economic climate may be different. I think we have a false glut of excess nurses in that when times are tough fewer nurses work more....and when times are better more nurses work less. And the older nurses will want to retire as soon as their 401K's turn around.

You bring up some valid points about hospitals not investing more in the new nursing pool. I too see the current situation as being very short sighted. However, there are new grad residency programs being offered by the colleges which should help new grads not hired gain the experience they need to apply for RN 1 positions.

Keep up the support mom, your daughter will need it as she applies to various programs and even more once she gets into a program. You've obviously done a good job as most of the young nursing students I've met are some of the coolest people I know.

Good Luck!

[caliotter3]

While I am not a retiree returning to nursing, I have several years experience and am not having an easy time staying adequately employed. I believe all nurses are having a difficult time with employment during these times. Nursing is not the panacea of available jobs that the media might lead the public to believe.

[rn/writer, RN]

What is your definition of a "retired nurse?"

If it's someone at the end of their earning years, say 60+, it might make sense for facilities to look at younger nurses with the long range in mind. (Just a side note--it isn't legal to discriminate based on age, although we all know it happens.)

But many nurses leave the workforce entirely or cut back on their hours to raise a family with the intention of gearing up again once the wee ones are a little older. For some, this will include resuming their education and going from an ADN or diploma to a BSN. Of this group, a small percentage will go on to get an MSN or doctorate.

These nurses didn't retire in the strictest sense. The pulled back in order to accomplish other life goals. Few of them meant for this to be a permanent exit. And many planned from the beginning to increase their education incrementally. That's one of the draws of nursing--the flexibility and the wide range of choices to fit personal needs and expectations.

Don't forget that without existing nurses seeking further education, we will be hard-pressed to find the instructors of tomorrow.

As for people looking at nursing as a second career, yes, they may have a leg up in getting into a program, but that's because they have valuable life experience that should be taken into account. Some have run their own businesses, and many have skills that carry over well into nursing.

These conditions exist in the best of times. Add a tight economy and you will see nurses who were taking time off decide to come back when a spouse loses a job and/or benefits. Some will be motivated to pursue a BSN to make or keep themselves marketable in the event of further belt-tightening. Even those who never left the workplace might go from part time to full time. With many facilities instituting hiring freezes or hiring only from within the system, there doesn't appear to be a shortage at the moment.

One more point is that while it may seem like a foolish move to hire someone who may only be around for another five years vs. a person who has several decades of earning potential, this is what many employers are doing as a short-term money-saving measure. It can cost between $60K to $100K and as much as six months to get a new grad up to speed. An experienced nurse can be far less expensive and become a productive member of the team in as little as two or three weeks. Saving money in this way may not pay much heed to the future, but it makes the bottom line look good now.

In a few years, if the economy settles down, I believe we'll experience a mass exodus in nursing, as people who delayed retirement (those who are 60+) finally feel they can afford to leave for good, and others who came back out of financial necessity are able to cut back on their hours. In the meantime, we're all doing the best we can.

I'm sorry your daughter is finding it so difficult to get into a good program.

[VivaLasViejas, ASN, RN]

Simple economics: Many older (50+) people are staying in the workforce because we can't afford to retire.

I think most Baby Boomer nurses would love to at least throttle back a little and work 2 or 3 days per week---I know I would!---but we can't even do that because we're taking care of aging parents/relatives, helping our adult children and grandchildren, becoming widowed or single again after decades of marriage, or living with a spouse who is unemployed or under-employed. We can't just step aside and gracefully surrender our jobs to the next generations; most of us are fighting to survive just like everyone else.

Sorry.

[lmnop]

Thank all of you for your insight. For the record, I'm not a mom, I'm a dad. But I'll take the compliment. Bertolozi, you mentioned relocating to areas that hire new grads. What areas have you noticed are hiring? Does anyone know if there are certain cities, states, regions that traditionally have more openings?

And, Caliotter3, you're right. The media makes it seem like nursing is still in a shortage. From what I've seen and heard, the public does still think that nurses are very much in demand. When my daughter expressed interest in nursing, I encouraged her wholeheartedly because of what I thought was going to be a future full of having the pick of just about any job she wanted... a recession proof job in a field with a shortage. I now kind of feel pressure to make sure my daughter's path is feasible. I guess what I'm trying to do is figure a way to guide her, let her know the real deal and what to expect without breaking her spirit (she really wants to be a nurse).

$60-100K to train a new grad? That is alot more than I thought it'd be. I guess hiring a returning nurse does bring higher profit for the short term (especially, as Miranda pointed out, that many of these aren't actually even returnees, but nurses who are just extending their hours). Long term, though, I think hospitals are not thinking macro in letting years worth of trained grads that do have decades (some of which will be within a nursing shortage) of workforce ability in them just decay. I'm hoping that I'm making a false assumption. If a new grad goes a couple or few years without landing a job, would his or her skills decay? Would that person be hireable and compitent after years of never actually being a nurse?

And SillyOleGramma, I would never suggest that you or anyone should give their job away to a youngster. From what I gather, you never left the workforce (and at 51, are in prime time). My post wasn't geared toward the decision of individual nurses to retire or return to nursing. It was geared at hospital decisions that don't seem based on the long term.

Again, thank all of you for sharing your knowledge.

Oh yeah, new grad residency? What exactly is that? Is it a permanent entry level job? I think I saw some type of residency on this site that was supposed to last for 18 weeks? So, it's temporary? If so, can it (does it usually) lead to full-time/permanent? Is it paid? Sorry for all the questions, but... I have alot of questions :-\

[llg, PhD, RN]

To add a little more to this thoughtful discussion:

1. Someone who is drowning thinks short-term ... not long-term. Hospitals are struggling to survive financially on a day-by-day basis. So when they hire, they are reaching for the experienced nurse who can step right in and be effective with minimal orientation -- not the new grad who needs 6-9 months to get up to speed. As a previous poster said, a full orientation for a new grad costs the hospital big bucks and they don't have that money to spend now.

2. Many new grads have little or no intention of staying in their first job long enough to "pay back" the hospital for their investment. If you read posts here on allnurses, you will find plenty of posts by students and/or new grads who say something like "I am going to get 1-2 years of bedside experience and then move on to do some other role in nursing." The high turnover rate among new grads is partly because of poor working conditions, but it is also partly because many new grads are simply using those entry level jobs as a stepping stone to further their long-term career goals outside the hospital. The older and/or returning nurse is more likely to plan on staying at the bedside and is less likely to be using that staff nurse job as a temporary job. This pattern gives hosptial more reason to not want to invest $50,000 or more in the orientation of a new grad. And that pattern is real.

3. I don't think the "discrimination" against new grads is quite as bad as it seems. I think it looks worse than it really is because the new grads are a very visible group -- easy to see and count. The economy has reduced hiring in general. Older, experienced nurses who want new jobs are struggling to find those new jobs: they just aren't as visible because they are sticking with old jobs they dislike or working less hours than they would like, etc. The new grads are very visible because they are completely unemployed. Also, a lot of schools have flooded the job market with new grads in the past 2 or 3 years. New grads would have a lot more competition for jobs now even if the hospitals all hired the same number as they did 5 years ago! There are simply more new grads now competing for the available positions -- and that would be true regardless of what the economy did.

My hospital hired over 30 new grads last year ... fewer than we usually do, but we hired fewer RN's overall last year. I don't think the proportion of new grads changed significantly. However, with 3 new nursing programs opening up in our community over the past 5 years, I know there are more new grads in the region looking for jobs. As the person responsible for coordinating the student experiences at my hospital, I follow those numbers and know they have been increasing steadily over the past couple of years. So there are more new grads competing on the job market than there were a few years ago -- and an economy in which existing nurses are holding onto the jobs they have and forcing hospitals to cut expenses as low as possible to keep their doors open.

The long term prospects for jobs in nursing are good. But the profession is suffering from the current economic climate just like everybody else -- only with a few twists particular to our profession.

[Corey Narry, MSN, RN, NP]

Last thing to add as the very thoughtful dad who wrote the original post mentioned foreign nurses. Foreign nurse recruitment have actually come to a halt...to an extent. There was a large wave of foreign nurses who arrived with employment-based immigrant visas in the late 90's and the 00's, back whem many hospitals in most parts of the country were hiring a lot of nurses. There is still a lot of interest from foreign nurses who wish to work in the US - just look at the posts in the International Forum. However, the mechanism allowing the entry of nurses from other countries has been stalled. After the last batch of foreign nurses received their US visas in 2006, the ones who applied after October 2006 have missed the window and are now waiting to get their turn since 2006. What they are being told is that it can take more years for them to even get a chance of getting a US visa. Hospitals who sponsored foreign nurses for employment in the past have now backed out of their previous offers to foreign nurses and are no longer engaging in this type of nursing recruitment. In a sense, you can say that foreign nurse recruitment may have contributed to a stable number of nurses in the current workforce as this particular group have considerable longevity for staying in nursing.

[Testa Rosa, RN]

I'm very impressed with the support you are giving your young daughter Pops! Keep it up, she will need someone like you in her corner. As a second career student and mother of three, nursing school has been the hardest thing I've ever done.

I new grad residency program (also called Versant Programs) are how many new grad RN's get acclimated into the hospital and unit they will ultimately be working. It provides the new grad with a lot of scaffolding ensuring patient saftey and RN retention. These programs were traditionally offered and paid for by the hospitals. Current new grads are in a catch 22 in that they can't apply to RN 1 positions without 1 year experience yet the hospitals have greatly reduced their new grad residency programs. The local CSU's are stepping in so that you can do a new grad residency thru a college, which means you have to pay for the experience, but it's worth it to get your foot in the door.

As far as locations, I can say with confidence that there will be little to no new grad RN positions in the Bay Area. Her chances may improve if your daughter worked as a CNA while getting her degree in that in-house new grads are more likely to get hired by the hospital they work for.

The further afield she goes North and Inland the better her chances will be. I've heard of a couple of my cohorts moving down Southland as well as into Washington, Oregon, Texas and Arizona. One of youngest, smallest, most sensitive and sweetest students is actually considering moving to New York where her cousin has an in for her (no offense to the NYers out there but the mom in me worries that you would eat this little cutie pie alive).

Whatever program your daughter gets into--and she should apply to them all--she should work towards the goal of getting her BSN (so if she is lucky enough to get into the ADN programs which really are the best bang for your buck, she should then bridge at her local CSU to get her BSN). She should also apply to the CSU's. In this economy, I would say the private colleges are a last resort option as you don't want to spend $$$ in these tight economic times. Yet, if it is your daughters dream and goal to be a nurse you may want to consider it.

And, at the end of the day, who is to say what the economy will be like by the time your daughter graduates. It could change on a dime. Nursing school is a long haul; focus on getting her into a program. It is a good profession and I'm sure it will serve her well in the future.

Nursing school was such a time of growth and learning for me. And even if the worst happens and I never get to practice my craft, I have already saved a couple lives, helped several pass away with dignity and comfort, and helped a life come into this world. What other profession make this claim -- and that's just from my three years in nursing school. If I bus hits me today, I know I've done good in this world just by what I've been able to accomplish in my nursing school career.

I would be so proud if one of my children chose nursing as their profession as I am sure you are so proud of your daughter. And you, Dad, deserve a pat on the back!

[Music in My Heart]

I believe that another contributor to the new-grad plight is the uncertainty that hospitals face about how the system and its finances might change in the next few years.

At this point, it's much lower risk to hire experienced people and minimize the upfront costs.

[Mike A. Fungin RN]

I guess my questions are: is there truth to the notion that retirees are displacing new grads? What about foreign nurses? If so, what is the logic behind it?

There is some truth to it. New grads are more expensive to train than you would think. The hospital I work at spent around $120,000 training me in my first year as a new grad in critical care.

Contrast that with hiring an experienced nurse, who needs only to be oriented to the hospital over a couple of weeks (to get familiar with charting and finding things) and the choice is obvious.

[thatguyindenver]

The choice is obvious? Well what about all the new grads with no job? What is going to happen when tons of new nurses just go and do something else. What is going to happen when the word gets out that you can't get a job as a new grad nurse. My wife just saw an article about how the ANA sent a letter to hospitals warning them of this. This is very short sighted. School enrollment at my school has already dropped. I have started looking for non nursing jobs. This practice is just going to cause huge problems in the future. Then you will really need us no experienced nurses. Hope there are enough.