BSN does not mean better... Sometimes education is overrated! - page 9
okay so here's my point. i have been reading several things on here about "i have my bsn so therefore i should make more money..blah, blah, blah" frankly i am sick of hearing it. let me give... Read More
Jun 10, '07After 20+ years of nursing as a Diploma RN and my experience being Med-Surg, SICU, Trauma, Transplant and Informatics - I am not going back to school to get a BSN. It just doesn't make sense for me to do this at this time in my life, it would not mean any more money, or higher career ladder.
I wanted to go to a Diploma program because it offered me what I needed. At the time the BSN programs were few in my area and I didn't want to go to ADN.
I was a non-traditional student, married, 2 children and working part time. I worked first as a Unit Secretary and then later as a Student Tech NA. While in school served as an officer of our Student Nurse Association and was active in the national and state associations. I continue to be active at the national, state and local levels of the nursing associations. I continue to go to conferences not only as an attendee but also as a presenter.
I have advanced in my career every time I made a change.
The bottom line...
Every licensed RN took the same NCLEX exam. Does that make everyone equal? Yes, as entry level Registered Nurses. What you do after that is dependent upon your knowledge and skill and knowing how to apply it. Sometimes education might play a part and sometimes it doesn't. Until the Peter Principle comes into play...this I have seen quite a bit unfortunately.
I love being a nurse and am thankful that I have had this opportunity in my lifetime.
Jun 10, '07Quote from BikerDiExactly. :spin: You hit the head of the nail on this one. Looking at this debate as a new nursing student I can see where everone is coming from. There aren't very many schools in my area that offered a BSN program or I may have just went that route. I was just accepted into the Nursing program for Fall 07 and I have been attending my current school the last 3 years (a county college) The first 2 years for pre reqs and the last year waiting. The ASN program will take me a total of 2 years giving me a total of 5 years for my ASN degree. I plan on pursing my BSN because I like learning and more education never killed anyone. That would give me a grand total of 7 years.... something is telling me I should have become a Doctor. (just kidding )
The bottom line...
Every licensed RN took the same NCLEX exam. Does that make everyone equal? Yes, as entry level Registered Nurses. What you do after that is dependent upon your knowledge and skill and knowing how to apply it. Sometimes education might play a part and sometimes it doesn't. Until the Peter Principle comes into play...this I have seen quite a bit unfortunately
I really just think we need to keep in mind what BikerDi said. Hey we are all on the same team right?
By the way, this is my first post... don't be to harsh, haha.
Take care, Leslie
Jun 10, '07HI, I hear your frustration and I've been there... this is such an old issue that I've heard and experienced myself. I'm a Canadian Nurse, I started out as a Nurses Aide when I was 16 years old and then did my LPN and then became a Registered Psychiatric Nurse, then I did my Advanced Diploma in Psychiatric Nursing and recently achieved a BSPN. I worked very hard to achieve a degree...it cost me alot of time, money sacrifice and relationships. I don't agree that a Nurses Aide should make the same amount as a person with advanced education...what would be the incentive to achieve higher education if that was the case? Should a lawyer earn the same as his secretary. Its not a matter of the NA working harder or knowing more than the degree nurse...its a matter of qualifications to fit the job requirement. I used to share your view before I knew what is actually involved and all I can say is that things are not as simple as they appear to be to the "untrained eye." At times I let my emotions lead to making judgmental call and called nurses 'stupid' because there assessments differed than my 'on-the-job' trainng and I also took things personal. I also went back to school to earn the credibility I knew I deserved and so that I could provide my patients with the best care I can give. NOt everyone has the opportunity for higher education...family committments, finances, access to education to name a few. There were many times I helped a new RN through the transition time from student to 'charge nurse' and showed them how to do new procedures and covered up there mistakes...yes there are incompetent nurses and there are incompetent para professionals, but I still say that if your investing in education and willing to accept the additional responsibility that comes with the health care system then yes you deserve financial compensation... it does not translate into 'better than others.'
Jun 10, '07I had my BSN from the Philippines and I'm proud that even though we are a developing country, we only have one pathway (BSN) to become a Registered Nurse.
I worked in the United Kingdom for six years, they too have associate and degree courses and before I left, there were debates to change the curriculum to an all-degree level of education.
I remember my college professor who fought for the all-degree nursing in the Philippines. Her argument is that for nurses to deliver quality health care, they should all be first class and educated at degree level.
If I will be a patient, I want the best nurse to care for me. A nurse that is caring, competent, and certain of what he or she is doing.
Jun 10, '07lovegoddess, since you are the person that started this thread, I wanted to respond to you. I agree that the letters behind your name have little to do with how well you will do your job, or how much you should get paid. We all come from very different backgrounds! I know of TRUCK DRIVERS that were formally Physicians! Society snubs their noses at someone that drives a truck, but you NEVER know who you are talking to! I'm sure there are many nurse aides that have higher IQs and more common sense than many RNs, you just never know...Some nurse aides may read medical school textbooks in their spare time.... That aide may understand way more than an RN about medicine and the human body....
As for myself, I am currently taking an ADN program...I will graduate with 7 years of school under my belt and 20 years of Critical Care experience as a Paramedic and as an ACLS and PALS Instructor. I fully expect to have "BSN" Nurses look down on me because I "only" have an Associate degree. ONLY? with 7 years of school and 20 years experience, I should be looking down on them! But of course, thats not my personality, and I won't do that...Its all very sad really. We take such great care of our patients and then we attack each other! Why can't we all get along?? Why don't we pat each other on the back and say good job! Treat everyone as an equal, all the way from Nurse Aide to Physician.(Thank you to those of you that do)
Jun 10, '07The only differences I have found at the entry level between a BSN and ADN are the amount of nursing theory, management, and public health classes - clinical time is the same if not more in a ADN program. I graduated from an ADN program and had more clinical time than my friends in a BSN program. WE ALL HAVE TO PASS THE SAME NCLEX to become a nurse. Everyone in my ADN program passed the NCLEX on the first try. I couldn't say the same for my friends and their classmates.
Nurses should be rewarded for experience. No one can say that they can read a book and be an excellent nurse. It's the hands on training that makes us better at nursing not the amount of education we have. Certainly education is important, but if I am a patient, I don't care if my nurse has had more time in the classroom. I care if she has experience dealing with real patients and situations. Education at the entry level is the beginning of all the learning we do as nurses. You get out and work and you hone your skills. Ultimately, it's the amount of NURSING experience that we are paid for. How you become and RN shouldn't matter.
In the area I live, the schools that offer BSN programs are considerably more expensive. Many have programs for RN-BSN and give credit for experience. Even the schools recognize that you can't learn to be a great nurse from a book - it's the training you get on the job. If cost is not an option, I encourage people to get their BSN because it takes about the same amount of time in school with all the prerequisites you have to take prior to being accepted in a ADN program. But I also encourage people to get their ADN, work as a nurse, and take advantage of the tuition reimbursement programs employers offer. I work with both BSN, ADN, and diploma nurses. The amount of experience is what separates us all, not the level of education we received. Give me a with 20 years of experience over a new grad with a BSN any day.
Jun 10, '07The biggest reason I went for my ADN vs BSN was all about money...it was so much cheaper to get that ADN. I guess the time in school was shorter too, but, really not that much, we had to go all summer for 2 summers, so it ended up being 6 semesters total, with 5 of those semesters having clinical experiences (usually 2 different facilities each semester though, so lots of variety). By the time I decided on nursing I already had been working on a bachelor's in business, so all my pre-reqs (nearly) were out of the way, I'm sure that made my experience with nursing school a little different as well, I didn't have to deal with the "extra" classes, just nursing courses. I may eventually go back for my BSN, but I'm rather discouraged about the idea of having to do clinicals again...I already work with patients 36 hours a week, doing it for school (again!) feels so, well, pointless. My feelings are this, go for your BSN if you can afford the cost (time and money) and think that you might want to be more than a staff nurse someday. Go for your ADN if you need to watch cost (once again, time or money) and if you want in the future, the BSN is always available (and your employer may help with tuition, always good!). And while I love the LPNs I work with (and have learned alot from most of them), at this stage in the game, at least in my area, that's probably not a good plan...they are really being phased out, at least in the hospitals. Our LPNs have till 2008 to get their RN or they will be let go...fortunately when the hospital made this decision they also started a program with the local CC so our LPNs could get their RNs and there have been alot of accomadations made (classes at the hospital, flexible schedules, etc, etc) so they could do the program. Plus I think the hospital is paying for it or there was a donation made or something...anyway its very low to no cost. Wow, I went off on a big tangent! Guess its nap time...
Jun 10, '07Quote from lovegoddess1977when you know better, you do better. here lies a perfect example why higher education is necessary. if you had some of that"overrated" knowledge maybe you would not be referring to someone with their masters degree as "stupid"okay so here's my point.
i have been reading several things on here about "i have my bsn so therefore i should make more money..blah, blah, blah" frankly i am sick of hearing it. let me give you a little background on me before i finish what i started.
i started out as an stna (cna) about 8 years ago. then i went and got my lpn. now i am getting my adn and i will graduate in may 2008. once i get my adn i am planning on going back and getting my bsn.
now let me say that i have met many bsn nurses who could not even figure out how to empty a foley drainage bag. they deemed that as "aide work". they also thought that they were better than us, and that we should bow down to them. also, i have met many bsn nurses who were so knowledgeable about everything and were excellent nurses. bedside manner was fantastic.
in general..i have met good nurses and bad nurses. that includes lpn's, bsn's and adn's. just because you have more education does not mean that you are better and should be paid more. honestly, bsn is a choice. it is a choice that i want to make. why would an employer pay a bsn all this money when they could pay an adn or a diploma rn less money for the same job? therefore...around the same pay for both. i just get sick and tired of people saying...i am better than you because i went to school for one year longer or two years or whatever. education is very important .....but its not everything when it comes to this debate. i met this master's degree nurse and she was sooooo stupid. i couldn't believe that she managed to get her degree. i knew this lpn who was smarter than any nurse i have ever met....rn's included. and vice versa.
my point: what makes a good nurse is personality, common sense and what you do with the knowledge that you possess.
we need one entry level for nurses like other professions, that would be one way to alleviate this debate. everybody demands more pay after continuing their education, so why shouldn't nurses. if you want to stay at your level and work yourself to a frazzle for experience sake then that's your choice.
usually people with a wide knowledge base tend to be less insecure. i don't hear the msns debating over lesser degreed nurses. did you know that the new batch of nurses entering the field is coming in as second-degreed nurses and depending on what part of the country you live, they come in as entry level masters degreed nurses. do you really think they are going to accept small change as salary. you live and learn everyday.
Jun 10, '07Quote from blueiwahineYou said it all. And again, how good a nurse you are will depend on what you are willing to put in to it. Our education doesn't end with a diploma, regardless of what that diploma says.I have my BSN degree...have to admit I never really worked as an aide...I attempted it, but nursing school was a ***** and between that and trying to deal with family matters too...there just wasn't enought time to be an aide and keep my grades decent... and I do admit it hurt me....Yes! I know there are people that have done it...but I was not able to...call me weak if it makes you feel better...I came from a non medical background. I was 38 when I started nursing school ...42 when I finished it...and I have no problem letting you know I do not feel as competant as some nurses who got their LVN or ADN...but that doesn't mean I won't get it all undercontrol with a little work experience...I thought about going LVN, upward mobility route, etc...but when all said and done it was shorter to just do my BSN. So everyone will have different levels of nursing experience...but I'm sure for all it will come with time...I do not feel that I am better than an LVN or ADN...everyone had a reason why they went to the level they did. I do understand there are alot of snotty BSN newcomers...but that doesn't mean everyone is that way.
Jun 10, '07I have said before that I think the skills checklist should be required in BSN too. I got my BSN and I have noticed a difference in some schools nurses. I was one that had trouble with the whole IV thing. I had expereince in nursing school, but you can only get so much chances because there isn't many. I always tell the nursing school students to get the Iv expereince.
Jun 11, '07Quote from krystaldragon721.RN, ADN, BA (Sociology) here. There are smart nurses, there are dumb nurses. The level of education doesn't mean diddly squat, it's about what you put into it. How many idiot doctors are there out there? Lots of them..and they make way more money than any of us do. But there again, a good doctor is one who puts his time and interest into the profession. I used to work in a trauma/ER unit. Average patient number per day was 400. We had residence working there. How much school is that? 8 years? One of the residence's ordered 7mg of Decadron for a 6 month old. My theory is he is dumber than a jack hammer.
What is the first thing they teach us in nursing school? Never, never, never IV push potassium. I'll never forget the last week of school, my clinical cohorts and I were sitting around joking about passing the final and someone made a joke about writing down how fast you push potassium. One of the other students, serious as a heart attack, says "how fast do you push potassium?" Now she had the same education I did....soooooooo what's up? It's all about what you put into it.
I think your sociology background didn't do much for you,,,,,try psy ........moving right along where interesting topics are discussed
Jun 11, '07It is funny to read some of the posts regarding this subject, although I am a student I have worked with both Registered and Enrolled nurses, and believe that both have their strengths. In Australia Enrolled Nurses have 12 months of training and Registered Nurses have 3 years.
While the EN has a better grip on the physical aspects of nursing, I think the RN tends to have a better depth of knowledge. After working the floor for a few years I believe that the gaps close and apart from a few skills or responsibilities there is little difference. While on placement I have seen both RN's and EN's wiping bums and other menial jobs, why? Because it is their job.
I have seen nurses of both pedigrees asking each other for help or advice and thought nothing of it. I believe that without teamwork the job wont get done and the patients will suffer, I guess I have been lucky and not seen this sort of devisiveness.
BTW I am studying for my RN degree and dont believe that wiping bums is beneath me and am pretty sure that most of my classmates would feel the same. We do leave the bedmaking for the first years though....joke!
Jun 11, '07I have been a diploma prepared nurse for 9 years. However, I will receive my BSN in August umpiron: . I ALWAYS empty bedpans, clean up vomit etc. when the need arises. However, I feel that it is ignorant when nursing assistants sit around talking while the nurses run ragged trying to keep patients stable and still expect the nurse to do ALL patient care because they are paid more. That is why we have NURSING ASSISTANTS! As far as the difference between diploma nurses and BSN nurses, the only difference that I see between the two are that BSN nurses have been taught a little more in the area of critical thinking. My perspectives have changed as a result of my degree, not my clinical skills. I do feel that any additional education that you receive warrants a pay hike, simply as an incentive for nurses to want to pursue new knowledge. I feel that if more people in healthcare were less envious of one another and their pay rates, that patients would receive better care. Team work is what it's all about:spin:!!!!!!