ADN's being pushed out - page 8

I work for a large Magnet hospital. As nursing becomes more popular, and nurses not in short supply, I have noticed something ominous has being going on lately. Several of our older and very seasoned... Read More

  1. by   kcmylorn
    If these health care institutions want all BSN's- then they should be paying our tuition
    Some one should sit these idiots down and tell them in elementary school language- the money for tuition doesn't grow on trees and make then write it 500 times until they get it!!!!!!!!
    They want nurses to gain advanced degrees then they don't want to pay wage compensation deserving of that advanced degree. I notice that is what the CEO's cry baby about when they defend their high salaries.
  2. by   kcmylorn
    I guess we can start writing our nursing assessments in APA format complete with foot notes, references and don't forget to "exactly quote the patients" to prevent plagerism. example:"No, I don't want that f!@*in' pill" we can dazzle the demented and hallucinatory with knowledge of classical art= Picasso's "lady on a sofa", hum a few concerto's and conduct story time - the Helen of Troy and Trojian Horse".

    I guess this is were the better communicator comes in- "Good morning administration , and who are you today!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
  3. by   Catch22Personified
    Too many nursing schools opening up is leading to a serious case of degree dilution.

    I can't wait until a DNP is the bare minimum to even work at a nursing home, how about you guys?
  4. by   brandy1017
    I agree with the many older RN's who already have a bachelors in another field and preparing for retirement, paying off their mortgage, taking care of their family, going back to school for a BSN would be a waste of time and money and would be taking a step backwards especially financially, when instead of saving for retirement you are taking out student loans that have to be paid before retirement or find your social security garnished! To get a BSN just to have a credential and no incentive financially also minimal college reimbursement, is just not worth it!

    Most of the new grad RN's I work with are back in school getting their NP to get out of bedside nursing as soon as possible. So the BSN push in the end will only backfire and increase staff turnover.
  5. by   avengingspirit1
    The Aiken study that nursing academic elitists love to trumpet as the reason why we need the BSN push has already been shown to be biased and flawed in many ways. I invite all nurses to read the critiques of the study. It is full of self-affirming validity. Why would anyone who calls themselves a professional advocate changing nursing policy based on just one study? So why the sudden push for the BSN? This may give us clue: (200 college and university campuses have closed during the last 10 years due to decreasing enrollments as baby boomers aged" (Nursing Spectrum, Jan. 9, 2012). Carefully research the people driving the BSN push and you'll find that every one of them is in some way affiliated with a four year college or university. I also researched the IOM and found that just about every one of its officials and representatives are also affiliated with four year schools. In other words, four year colleges need revenue and those in academia want to stay employed. Since there are more nurses than any other healthcare professional, they feel requiring nurses to run back to school is the best way to get it. Once they have all nurses running back for BSNs, then they'll say you need a Master's Degree to give the profession the respect it deserves. After that it will be a doctorate. If you buy into this scheme, they'll have you running back to school and in debt for the rest of your life.

    Many hospitals in the area are telling their most experienced nurses; many who are in their 40s and 50s who have over 20+ yrs of experience along with specialty certifications that demonstrate proficiency and excellence in areas such as trauma and ICU and who also have called upon to mentor new nurses, that they must now earn BSNs. Many of these nurses realize that to go into debt for $20,000-$30,000 at that time in their lives for something that has absolutely no bearing on patient care is ludicrous. Many know that the loan may not be paid off by the time they are ready to retire and have said they would leave the profession if they are forced to do this. These are the most experienced nurses that you and I would want to have taking care of us or our loved ones should hospital treatment be necessary. Losing these nurses would be a detriment to the profession and a danger to general public.

    Bottom line: If the BSN push is not about money, why won't they let nurses earn BSNs the same way they earn CEUs such as studying articles in Nursing Spectrum and Advance then taking the competency tests. Reason is the four year colleges and universities won't make money that way.

    And as far as Magnet Status goes:“Nothing more than a money making scheme for the ANA, hospitals pay the ANA thousands of dollars for a fake seal of approval.” (Jan.16, 2009,

    The elitists driving the BSN and Magnet Status push live in the fantasy world of academia and think we nurses are too stupid and naive to see through their game. Let's let them know we're not by not not buying into their scam and by not supporting the ANA or your state's nurse's association until they stop supporting the hiring of only BSNs in hospitals. Also, an RN with a Bachelor's Degree in another area should be given the same hiring consideration as someone with a BSN. To not do so would be the most narrow-minded, short-sighted thing I've ever heard of.
  6. by   CrunchRN
    Telling it like it is Avenger. Nice job.
  7. by   nursel56
    I've found the same things in my delving deeply into this issue as you have, avengingspirit1. I hope people realize we are not bashing education. We had to educate ourselves to find these things in the first place. We had to question the status quo and find evidence in obscure places while fighting a PR machine that has all the levers of power politics at their fingertips and the ear of the mainstream media who for the most part still does not in any way doubt what the ANA, the AACN, and the IOM tell them.

    It offends me when they are dishonest to aspiring nurses. It offends me that they waited until the truth of the new grad glut became too obvious to ignore before they acknowledged it's existence begrudgingly and in carefully couched language. I wonder if they feel a pang or two knowing there is probably an emerging notch group of "old new grads" of the 2009-2011 years who are pretty much left in the dust now because this issue never saw the light of day due to the self-interest of the nursing lobby.

    It offends me when they trumpet the need for more years of education in evidence-based practice and immediately cherry-pick statistics from their cohorts in workforce research and publish them in a Press Release or a -cough- "Fact Sheet".

    Whatever has happened that led to the present situation, though . . .the employer is in the driver's seat for the first time in decades and they set the rules. To be pragmatic, getting your BSN, even if it doesn't cause a substantial pay increase, cause other healthcare specialties and the public to "finally respect us as professionals" or give your post-op surgical patient in Pennsylvania a better chance of stayin' alive - getting your BSN as soon as possible is your best course of action.
  8. by   avengingspirit1
    Thank you for realizing that I am not bashing education. In fact I have always said that I think it's great if a nurse chooses to further their education. But it needs to be just that, their choice. In a still struggling economy, where nurse's hours are being cut and new jobs are still scarce, it may not be currently feasible financially or time-wise to go back to school. Many healthcare facilities have either stopped or cut back on tuition reimbursement. Also many nurses with families may not have the time to spend 20 hours a week writing papers in APA format on how nurses feel about their supervisors as well as how ancient Egyptian Art and Sanskrit may relate to patient care today.

    Once they have all nurses running back for BSNs, then they'll say you need a Master's Degree to give the profession the respect it deserves, then it will be doctorate. If we allow this scheme to perpetuate, they'll have us running back to school for the rest of our lives. Univ. Of Penn Hospital has already told their BSNs that they want them to earn a Master's Degree.

    In looking the curriculum of RN-BSN programs, I found they consist of courses such as: Professional Ethics, Leadership in Nursing, Research Methods and Currents Issues in Nursing. All of these courses are incorporated in some way in every accredited nursing program and to have to pay thousands of dollars to have to take them in a BSN program especially since they have nothing to do with improved patient care is a scam. Also, there is no extra hands-on or clinical training in just about all RN-BSN programs.

    All nurses whether they graduate from a Diploma, Associates or Bachelor’s Program must complete the same coursework from an accredited program in order to sit for the state licensing exam. Why does it bother these so-called nursing leaders so much that many nurses graduated from Diploma and Associates programs? And why should they care as long as a nurse is skilled, competent and maintains their license by completing the state mandated continuing education units?

    Again, I have no complaints about hospitals encouraging nurses to further their education. But telling experienced nurses who may also have specialty certifications that demonstrate excellence in certain areas of nursing that they must earn a BSN within 3 years under the veiled threat of termination if they don't is the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. They are risking losing their most experienced nurses and reports from nurses I have spoken with of shoddy patient care are already starting to trickle down as a result of the Magnet Status and BSN pushes.

    And all this being driven by academic elitists who probably haven't touched a patient since Bill Clinton was in office. During a conversation I had with a representative from a nurse’s association, it was stated that unless a nurse has a Bachelor’s degree, they are not considered a professional.

    So how does that make all nurses feel who worked for years with a diploma or associates degree that they were not considered a professional in the eyes of people who claim they represent nurses. And that applies to all nurses who went on to get a BSN or MSN. During all that time they worked before they obtained those degrees, they were not considered a professional. Now you know why I use the term elitist. And I’m sure it’s not just that one state nurse’s association who feels that way.

    This is the type of thinking that's driving the BSN push.

    I agree with you that employers are in the driver's seat now because there is a glut of nurses. However many of the baby nurses can't wait to retire and shortly will as soon as the economy improves a little more. I also agree that the uniformed general public as well as possibly hospital administrators may take what the IOM, ANA, AACN and ANCC as gospel. That is why I contacted the media about this scam being sold to the public. A major TV station is interested but want more nurses affected by this garbage to speak up. I am in the process now of trying to find people. In this economy, nurses are afraid of being fired or blacklisted.

    When that happens, public perception will change and so will nursing. And all these elitists as well as employers that are pushing this nonsense may find themselves scrambling to do some major damage control when the truth comes out.

    I probably will eventual get the BSN even though I already a Bachelor's in business because I really have no intention of doing hospital work in this present climate. But it will be on my own terms, not theirs.

    Nurse/56, you are wise and intelligent and it somewhat restores my faith to know there are nurses like you out there.
  9. by   Susie2310
    Quote from avengingspirit1
    In looking the curriculum of RN-BSN programs, I found they consist of courses such as: Professional Ethics, Leadership in Nursing, Research Methods and Currents Issues in Nursing. All of these courses are incorporated in some way in every accredited nursing program and to have to pay thousands of dollars to have to take them in a BSN program especially since they have nothing to do with improved patient care is a scam. Also, there is no extra hands-on or clinical training in just about all RN-BSN programs.
    I want to point out that you are generalizing in your quote above. The curriculum of the RN-BSN program I attended included courses in public health nursing; community health practicum; research; leadership; advanced health assessment; preceptorship and a nursing theory class. I also had to take four units of college statistics and a few more humanities classes. You are incorrect to say that these courses are incorporated in some way in to every accredited nursing program. The accredited ADN program I attended did not include these classes. As an aside, completing the public health nursing class made one eligible to apply to the Board of Registered Nursing for a certificate in public health nursing, a requirement for certain jobs. The extra nursing education required for bridge to BSN is not purely superficial.

    While I agree with much of what you have written in your earlier posts, being in possession of both an ADN and BSN my experience of both educational programs is that the curricula of both were important to my nursing education. The ADN program provided the foundation of my nursing education, in particular very good clinical training, while the bridge to BSN rounded out my nursing education. If I had not had the time and money I would have stuck with the ADN program.

    I understand the frustration of experienced nurses or any licensed nurse who is in the position of being compelled by employer preference and/or market forces to go back for their BSN. I would not like to be in that position either. But don't let's diminish the value of the better quality RN-BSN programs. Already having a bachelor's degree in another subject, even a science, is not comparable to the coursework for the RN-BSN, as stated in my first paragraph.
    Last edit by Susie2310 on Feb 25, '13
  10. by   nursel56
    Thanks, avengingspirit1. I do hope the economy improves and job opportunities improve for all nurses. It's harder for experienced nurses to find jobs as well. Those who do best are experienced in specialized units like critical care.

    We had a really interesting thread not too long ago from a nurse who served on a public-private committee in her state looking at whether the state should mandate the BSN for entry to practice. They found that in many cases there wasn't a large difference between some Associates programs and some BSN programs, as there is not one across-the-board curriculum for either degree.

    Right now they are pushing for more Advanced Practice Nurses and the DNP degree which includes a committee to study present Master's programs for the purpose of evaluating what, if any differences there are in programs offered by other healthcare specialties like pharmacy and physical therapy. I wish they would instead focus their attention and efforts into looking at present ADN programs with the goal of integrating them into BSN programs. I recently saw this news item from the state of Virginia. Though it is not an all encompassing solution, it is a welcome step in that direction.

    GW Will Guarantee Admission to Virginia community college Nursing Grads
  11. by   CrunchRN
    Another point. I was just reading t=in Money magazine that acquiring a more advanced degree after age 45 just does not make good financial sense. So, it should not be required unless employers are willing to pay for it. I am 50. I am not going to acquire 10k in debt at this point in my life.
  12. by   avengingspirit1
    Nurse/56: When I spoke with one of the administrators a few years ago at the ADN program I graduated from in 2004, she told me that since I have a Bachelor's in Business as well as graduate work in education earned prior to being admitted to the nursing program, it should only be a matter of taking a few upper level nursing courses in an RN-BSN Bridge program. But all the programs I researched required anywhere between 30-47 credits at a cost of between $285-$500 per credit. Most of the courses were 3 credits each with 1 or 2 two credit courses thrown in. Depending on the school, with tech fees, book costs and whatever else schools can do to pad the tuition bill, we're talking anywhere between $14,000-$30,000 for something that will serve no other purpose but to increase revenue for these schools and all those affiliated with them. Which, by the way are the very people driving the BSN push.

    Like CrunchRN, I am 50 and to take on that kind of debt on top of my nursing school student loan which I am still paying off, does not make good financial sense. My brother who is an actuary even advised me not to do it. If it was truly about advancing the profession and for the good of patients, and not just about money; there would be much less expensive options for RNs, especially those with prior degrees in other areas, to obtain the almighty BSN. There would also be clinical components included to help a nurse become even a better clinician. I like the idea of possibly integrating ADN with BSN programs to make it feasible for nurses like myself to bridge the gap in a cost effective manner. But I'm not seeing any of this yet. What I'm still seeing is one big money-making racket being perpetuated and driven by elitists who stand to benefit from it.
  13. by   avengingspirit1
    Not sure about the program you attended but I checked every A.S. and Diploma program in the my area and Infomatics, Leadership, Research, and Community Nursing were all a part of every nursing program I reviewed. Statistics as well as other math courses along with the humanities, English comp., art and basic science courses were either in the program or were required as per-requisites.
    I do agree that some RN-BSN programs are probably better than others but the bottom line is that they will never make one one a better nurse. The ability to think critically and optimize limited resources to provide optimal care comes from experience and being mentored by nurses with much more experience. I would ask that nurses talk with other nurses who went through a RN-BSN program and ask them if it was worth it. Every nurse I spoke to said it was a big waste of time and money.

    And ADN with another degree in something such as business would have completed over and above the required coursework in a BSN program. Of course the IOM, ANA, AACN, ANCC and state nurse's associations would not consider that a common sense substitute. Number one, many of these people have lived in the fantasy work of academia for so long that common sense has become a diminishing skill for them. Also their goal is to try to force as many nurses as they can to have to run back to school. It is the biggest business racket going today. Employers however may not doubt these people due to being uniformed about nursing education. I have spoken to many nurses and teachers. I invite nurses to do the same as well as read what many nurses are saying about the BSN push; excluding those affiliated with the organizations I mentioned above as well as those affiliated with four year colleges and universities. Most nurses know it's BS. Most teachers know it's BS and soon the general public will know it's BS.