"Why does a nurse have to go to college?"

jadelpn, LPN, EMT-B · Aug 23, 2012

And it is not the homeschooling I was refering to, but the seemingly militant views of the father, who apparently thinks more of himself as far as being at master level in his education.

norlns24 · Aug 23, 2012

Sorry, this may sound harsh, but I'd say you need to make new friends. That guy sounds like a kook. You are against the idea of his daughter going to a third world country with no regulations to practice w/out credentials... If we abandon formal education and all regulations, and all the other stuff this guy is apparently advocating, his daughter won't have to travel far. The U.S. will be a third world country and she can work right here w/ no licensure, education, insurance, etc. etc.

alyiana · Aug 23, 2012

As for the comments that "she's about to be an adult to make her own decisions" I disagree. I'm 24, I'm living in a different state than my parents, and I still listen to their opinions on things and my husband listens to his parents, and just about everybody I know does too. While we always make our own finial decisions, our parents will always have a strong impact on our decisions.

Options:

Some hospitals will train Patient Care Techs (like CNA but not certification) on the job.

LVN/LPN: not a college degree, but still a "licensed nurse"

Herbal medicine (still certification and training, but not so much a formal degree)

Massage Therapist (same as with herbal: certification and training: no formal degree)

Medical Assistant (like another poster put, you many not need any certification, just work in an office and get trained from the ground up I did it before nursing school and it was very valuable, and once you get trained at once office, many others doctors will hire you)

Nurse Maru · Aug 23, 2012

And my guess is more along the lines that Dad doesn't want to relinquish control, and college and shadowing a working RN just may do that, so send her with a spiritual caregiver, call it a "nurse" to satisfy kid's need, and Dad and church still have the control.

This suggestion is utterly and completely ethically and morally bankrupt. It is absolutely loathsome and horrifying to suggest that a young woman should be deluded and deceived in order to maintain her status as chattel under the control of her father. You show no respect for the autonomy of a woman to control her own destiny and no respect for the truth in this statement. To find a statement like this on a site dedicated to a profession of integrity that has meant so much to so many women is appalling.

4gtfl1 · Aug 23, 2012

I'm really surprised by the judgmentalism displayed by so many of these responses. Aren't we as nurses supposed to be non-judgmental?

There are as many reasons for someone going "off-grid" and for homeschooling as there are people doing it. You cannot assume you know what someone's reasoning is just because you knew, or heard of, or saw a TV show about, someone doing something similar.

As for this young lady's ability to handle the situations she may encounter as a nurse, especially in third world countries - she may well be far better equipped to cope than the average American youth, who is insulated from the world while attending schools that provide amenities only dreamed about in generations past, surrounded by others their own age, going to lessons and various extra-curricular activities and watching TV shows about "real people" with lavish lifestyles. She may not be either, but there are some homeschooling families who travel extensively and do humanitarian work as a family.

As for the educational ideology, in my circle of friends it's the professors who are most adamant about the sorry state of education in our colleges and universities today. They complain regularly and loudly about how quickly our schools have gone downhill, that now most students coming out of high school are incapable of college level work, so college has been dumbed down, and that now it's not only possible but is actually the norm to graduate from college with a reading, language and mathematical comprehension level lower than the average high school senior of fifty years ago. Most of the people I know who homeschool their children hold at least a Bachelor's degree; it seems the higher their education level the more likely they are to keep their children out of the established educational system.

Given the little info we were regarding this man and his beliefs, let's withhold the extreme reactions please!

jadelpn, LPN, EMT-B · Aug 23, 2012

This suggestion is utterly and completely ethically and morally bankrupt. It is absolutely loathsome and horrifying to suggest that a young woman should be deluded and deceived in order to maintain her status as chattel under the control of her father. You show no respect for the autonomy of a woman to control her own destiny and no respect for the truth in this statement. To find a statement like this on a site dedicated to a profession of integrity that has meant so much to so many women is appalling.

As the OP stated, Dad doesn't believe in what most would consider social norms. Have at it, he is an adult, and can think and choose to live the life he wants. However, the statements made by the OP strongly suggest that he is making a decision for his child regarding her future BASED ON HIS BELeIF SYSTEM. The daughter should make a decision regarding her future should she choose to go to college or not when she is old enough to make it. I find the father in this situation ethically and morally bankrupt. And believe what you want, but I do find there's a LOT of deluding going on in that home. The OP asked for opinions. Mine is if one's SEEMINGLY parinoid and delusional father doesn't believe in licensing and insurance and other things that most people may not 100% enjoy going through to obtain, but realize they need to, then he could offer that opinion, but not prevent his child from making her own choices when she reaches the age to. So, in fact I HOPE this young girl has been exposed to many more opinions than that of her father, so that she can become the woman SHE wants to be. And you know what I find "chattel under the control of her father" repulsive. Unfortunetely that a friend has to plead the case of a girl regarding her college and licensing with her father suggests otherwise.

I find your comment loathsome and appalling considering you have such a stong opinion of women and their rights. As do I. So calling me ethically and morally bankrupt could not be further from the truth. Apparently you misread my post.

emmyers, RN · Aug 23, 2012

Nurse Maru, Jadelpn's suggestion is one that takes into account the environment at the least risk to the girl. It is one that will provide an open door for the girl where she may not have one, in which she has the opportunity to develop independence and pursue possibilities in the future. It may be morally wrong to you what is going on, but you do not know the full details of the situation, and your morals are only applicable to you, as it's your belief system. A lot of these "off the grid" types have created their own culture in a sense, and we need to be culturally sensitive to that. What if they are Amish? Amish are off the grid, strongly religious, patriarchal in structure, and value apprenticeship over formal education; would you say their way of living is immoral? I wouldn't; we cannot force our own moral beliefs on others.

I would also suggest you read "The Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down" by Ann Fademan if you haven't. It's a great read.

norlns24 · Aug 23, 2012

I'm really surprised by the judgmentalism displayed by so many of these responses. Aren't we as nurses supposed to be non-judgmental?
There are as many reasons for someone going "off-grid" and for homeschooling as there are people doing it. You cannot assume you know what someone's reasoning is just because you knew, or heard of, or saw a TV show about, someone doing something similar.
As for this young lady's ability to handle the situations she may encounter as a nurse, especially in third world countries - she may well be far better equipped to cope than the average American youth, who is insulated from the world while attending schools that provide amenities only dreamed about in generations past, surrounded by others their own age, going to lessons and various extra-curricular activities and watching TV shows about "real people" with lavish lifestyles. She may not be either, but there are some homeschooling families who travel extensively and do humanitarian work as a family.
As for the educational ideology, in my circle of friends it's the professors who are most adamant about the sorry state of education in our colleges and universities today. They complain regularly and loudly about how quickly our schools have gone downhill, that now most students coming out of high school are incapable of college level work, so college has been dumbed down, and that now it's not only possible but is actually the norm to graduate from college with a reading, language and mathematical comprehension level lower than the average high school senior of fifty years ago. Most of the people I know who homeschool their children hold at least a Bachelor's degree; it seems the higher their education level the more likely they are to keep their children out of the established educational system.
Given the little info we were regarding this man and his beliefs, let's withhold the extreme reactions please!

I agree with some of your post, and understand where you are coming from, and I support the right to home school, but I do not believe that someone who is home schooled is necessarily "far better equipped to cope than the average American youth, who is insulated from the world while attending school." If anyone is insulated from the world, wouldn't it be those who are home-schooled? Part of the reason many parents home-school their children is exactly that they do not want their children exposed to other religious, political, or alternative (gay/ lesbian, for example) points of view, and let's be honest, even other races and socio-economic backgrounds, in some cases. The U.S. is an incredibly diverse nation, and even many rural schools now have students belonging to minority groups and non Judeo-Christian faiths. I do not believe it is a coicidence that home schooling has risen as public schools have become more diverse.

I attend college with several home schooled students (K-12) who are super nice, very well adjusted and who do extremely well in their studies. I also know from my mom, who was a truancy officer, that some children who are home-schooled are left in the dust. Each state is different, but in Illinois, there are (or were, not sure presently) few regulations on curriculum or licensing. One father who was "home schooling" his son watched videos w/ him for a few hours and considered making lunch "home economics." That was really an unacceptable situation. My mom was beside herself.

I believe home-schooling can work, but I also do not believe it should be glorified while traditional education is bashed. Education is a problem to be sure, but there are also many students who graduate very well prepared for college who come from a traditional, public school background. The students you describe above are more a product of a less-than-desirable home life and lack of parental involvement than an idictment on public schools. If all parents and citizens truly cared and truly valued eduation and pressued boards and were willing to pay for them, we could have the best schools in the world. I have no doubt about this.

I also agree that this father has a right to believe what he wants, but only to the point (and not one nanometer further) he is not hurting others through actions that spring forth from these views he holds. The minute his ideas and views hurt others, it is no longer okay or just a matter of free speech. It is arguable he is hurting his daughter's future w/ his views. Yes, he has his right to his views, but to discourage his daughter from pursuing educational attainment and licensing is hurtful because it very likely will negatively impact her future. It's one thing to worship Ayn Rand, it's another thing to actively encourage his daughter not to follow the normal path to obtaining the necessary credentials in a field she apparently shows both great interest in and aptitude for. That this very thread even exists is sad.

A perfect analogy to my point above is immunizations. Parents have a right to believe they cause autism, but do they have a right to withhold their children from having them, and then send their children out into the world and risk infected others w/ any number of otherwise easily preventable and controllable childhood disease? I say NO, esp. when several large-scale and well-funded studies show no link between immunizations and autism. Personal beliefs have a limit, even in a country that purportedly believes so strongly in free speech. I believe the father who is the subject of this thread is showing where these limits lie, certainly not legally, but definitely ethically and morally.

BrandonLPN, LPN · Aug 23, 2012

Who said nurses can't be judgmental? First of all this man isn't a pt of any of us. Second, we have a duty to be objective in how we *treat* pts and not let our beliefs affect how we deliver care. That's absolutely separate from being judgmental. I have many residents where I work who are incredibly racist and homophobic. You better believe that, in my head, I judge them for that. But I don't let it affect how I provide care. It's called having self control.

BrandonLPN, LPN · Aug 23, 2012

Also, enough with *every* custom in the world being off limits to judgement based on the principal of "cultural relativism". Apartheid wasn't a legitimate cultural belief of white South Africans, it was just plain wrong. Muslims stoning a woman to death because she had sex before marriage isn't a legitimate cultural practice, it's just plain wrong. Cloistering your children away from society and denying them access to healthcare, education and a social life is just plain wrong, too.

4gtfl1 · Aug 23, 2012

"Why can't she just work with another nurse and learn what she needs to know?"

"This is the question posed to me by a friend whose children are homeschooled and live somewhat "off the grid". (The teen daughter is very interested in nursing and is academically quite competetent. She would like to be a missionary.) My friend is a self-described "rebel", well educated himself at the masters level. He rejects almost all state regulation, licensure, social security, insurance, etc. Nothing I could say convinced him that formal education and licensure for nurses has value.

I'd love to see his daughter attend some type of nursing program when she is old enough. Any ideas of what might convince him that it is a good idea?"

This is what we know.

"...we have a duty to be objective in how we *treat* pts and not let our beliefs affect how we deliver care. That's absolutely separate from being judgmental."

Well said, and I agree. We can be as judgmental as we want (and we all are). But we should definitely avoid jumping to conclusions and deciding we know things we don't. We may figure that this guy is any number of things, but other than the info provided, we don't know. There have been replies assuming all manner of things about this man and to the effect that the questioner should discontinue her relationship with this family. That's ridiculous.

Another answer to the original question - make sure this guy knows that the state boards of nursing are self-governing bodies, established by the nursing associations to maintain standards; it's not a government-regulated profession. The state boards of nursing are very careful to observe higher standards than the government might impose so as to remain free of government regulation. State licensure is regulated by these boards. That might be a surprise to him, and hopefully a help to his daughter.

norlns24 · Aug 24, 2012

"Why can't she just work with another nurse and learn what she needs to know?"
Another answer to the original question - make sure this guy knows that the state boards of nursing are self-governing bodies, established by the nursing associations to maintain standards; it's not a government-regulated profession. The state boards of nursing are very careful to observe higher standards than the government might impose so as to remain free of government regulation. State licensure is regulated by these boards. That might be a surprise to him, and hopefully a help to his daughter.

Just because the state boards of nursing choose to establish higher standards than those that might be set by the government, does not mean it is not government regulated. By your own words, there is a point at which lower standards would trigger gov't intervention of some sort. This becomes a form of government regulation. The airlines also self-impose stricter standards than the FAA mandates. Are you next going to argue that airline safety is not regulated by a gov't agency?

As to being too judgmental, I am not certain who you were referring to (perhaps most respondents), but this is verbatim from the original post:

OP: "He rejects almost all state regulation, licensure, social security, insurance, etc. Nothing I could say convinced him that formal education and licensure for nurses has value."

A person who rejects all formal education and health insurance for himself, and apparently, his family, is not simply someone being misunderstood, as you appear to be arguing. I agree that we may not know many details about the father, and assuming he reads Ayn Rand on my part was admittedly a detail I sketched in. However, the facts we do know (what I pasted just above) speak VOLUMES and I imagine, these given facts (if we are to trust the OP, and I don't see any reason why we shouldn't) formed the basis of most of the responses in this thread.

I for one have found most responses very reasonable, save the one that suggests (albeit with the best intentions, not doubt) the daughter traipse off into the wilds of Africa after her informal training to care for the sick there. I immediately thought of Doctors Without Borders when I read this suggestion. They operate in many part of Africa, and their standards of recruitment are very high. And why should people needing medical care in poor countries be subjected to someone with no formal training? It reminds me of donating defective and often unsafe goods to Africa instead of tossing them out, which reminds me of the scandal in 1990 when condom companies donated defective prophylactics that ended up being foisted upon unsuspecting individuals there. But I digress.

Part of what bothers me about the father -- and yes, now I am being judgmental and admittedly likely assuming a few things -- is that he likely depends on the government far more than he realizes or would ever care to admit. Would he turn down the fire department should they show up at his burning house? Who built the roads and bridges he uses, assuming he drives? Does he pay taxes, and if so, has he ever claimed any deductions or exemptions, which can easily be looked at as a form of gov't assistance, as an accounting instructor of mine once pointed out. I could keep going.

No, I don't know this individual at all, but based on what WAS stated about him, I am annoyed by his very clearly stated beliefs because they stand an excellent chance of negatively impacting his daughter's future. I am all for self-sufficiency. I work VERY hard and saved a lot of money so that I will be able to graduate with a BSN completely debt free, with savings to spare, and w/out having to touch either my 401k or my IRA. I believe many people (granted, not necessarily the father in this thread) who share this Ayn Rand radical self-sufficiency worldview wouldn't have a clue how to survive go-it-alone commando style outside the bubble of one of the most wealthy and comfortable nations the world has ever seen. It's kind of like Dick Cheney hunting from a helicopter and considering himself a survivalist. Anyway, I am totally done with this thread... I have stated everything I wanted to state, and probably more.