"Listening to nurses is key to being a good doctor"

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I'm a doctor. We get all the glory. And credit. And guess what? We only deserve part of it.

I started out in medicine in the mid-80′s, volunteering at an ER. And the biggest shock to me was learning how much of what happens in a hospital is nurse territory. Doctors will see you anywhere from 5 to 30 minutes a day, depending on how sick you are. And the rest is the nurses.

They're the ones making sure you get your pills and checking that your vital signs aren't dropping. They make sure you don't fall down and break something. If you start vomiting, doctors will run out of the room and the nurses will rush in. They change your wound dressings and start your IV line. They'll bring you a warm blanket. And clean disgusting things off you. Even if you're drunk. Or delirious. Or mean. And through all of this they try be friendly and positive. Even though you aren't their only sick patient.

I respect nurses. I learned early on that they're key to being a good doctor. You **** off the nursing staff, and you'll have a miserable career at that hospital. Respect and treat them well, and you'll never regret it. They're as important to being a good doctor as your medical degree. Maybe more.

If you come out of medical school with a chip on your shoulder against nurses, you better lose it fast. Because they will make or break your training, and often know more than you do. Be nice and they'll teach you. A good neurology nurse is often a better inpatient neurologist than some doctors I've met.

I remember a guy named Steve, who was an intern with me a long time ago. We were only a few months out of medical school, and as we were writing chart notes one morning a nurse came over and asked if he'd go listen to his patient's heart. With icy contempt, and not even looking up from the chart, he said "I don't have to listen to his heart, because I looked at his EKG." They ain't the same thing, dude. If he'd listened he might have noticed that the patient had developed a loud murmur in the last 24 hours.

When the attending caught it a few hours later, Steve got chewed out. If he'd taken the nurse's advice, and listened, he wouldn't have gotten reprimanded by the residency board.

Here's a quote from "Kill as Few Patients as Possible" by Oscar London, MD: "Working with a good nurse is one of the great joys of being a doctor. I cannot understand physicians who adopt an adversarial relationship with nurses. They are depriving themselves of an education in hospital wisdom."

Those doctors are also depriving themselves of friends. On a difficult day on call, sometimes all it takes is a sympathetic nurse to temporarily add you to her patient list, steal you a Diet Coke from the fridge, and let you cry on her shoulder for 5 minutes. It doesn't make the day any less busy, but helps you absorb the punishment better.

What got me started on this?

While I was rounding this weekend, a grateful patient's family brought the ICU nurses a box of donuts, and so the staff was picking through them. One said, "Oh, this kind is my favorite, it has cream filling."

And a patient in one of the rooms yelled, "Hey, babe, I got my own kind of cream-filled dessert in here! Come have a taste!"

You say that to a waitress, and you'd likely get your kicked out of the restaurant.

You say that to a co-worker, and you'd be fired and/or sued for harassment.

You say that to a lady in a bar, and you'll likely get a black eye.

And what did the nurse do? In spite of the patient said, she went in his room, turned off his beeping IV pump, and calmly told him that he would not talk to her that way.

And I admire that.

Nursing is a damn tough job. And the people who do it are tougher. And somehow still remain saints.

Doctor Grumpy is a neurologist who blogs at Doctor Grumpy in the House.

http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2010/06/listening-nurses-key-good-doctor.html

Specializes in ER, progressive care.
The other, not so much. We all dread days we're on-call with him. The sort of doc that exhibits random, childlike power plays, takes as little responsibility as possible for anything getting done and communicates almost zilch..."why are you calling me?" "What do you want me to do about it?"

We have some doctors like that. The hospitalists are pretty good, and I like working them. There is one cardiologist in particular who does not like to be called in the middle of the night unless his patient is literally dying. The attending was a nephrologist, but cardiology was consulted because of critically-elevated troponins. If I called the nephrologist, he probably would have just told me to call cardiology. So I called the cardiologist, who was ****** off, and immediately said, "I don't know this patient" after he gave orders to the dayshift RN for IV Lopressor and started the patient on PO Lopressor BID :rolleyes: This is also the same cardiologist who got ****** off when I called him about a BP in the 180's (he was the attending) and said to me, "why are you monitoring this patient's blood pressure at 0300? I would be ****** off if you were doing that to me, so stop doing it to him" and hung up on me.

Specializes in I/DD.

Reading this reminded me of my favorite night/weekend float that I got to work with today. He is so quick to listen it is unbelievable. I can call him at 0330 and he calls back in a matter of minutes. When deciding what to do about a situation he has a conversation with me, and asks for my input. At the same time, he is not unwilling to disagree with me (it helps that he is brilliant). While I love when docs listen to me, I haven't even been a nurse for 2 years yet. At this point in my career, while I have more on-the-job experience than the residents, they have more training. Most of the time if I call the doc it is because I don't know what the next step should be, and I need their input. It is a refreshing change from the residents who are slightly unsure and somewhat defensive when I have an honest question about their orders.

Specializes in Trauma, Teaching.

I had a doc thank me one night for doing a thorough assessment on a kid, in fact several folks that busy night, so he could figure who he needed to see first and who could wait a bit. Or who he could just run in and get DC'd quickly. Trusted me to know what I was talking about. Really made me feel valued.

Others don't even bother to read my intake notes. One started to order a whole sheaf of stuff to be done, based only on initial complaint. When I pointed out the rest of the data there, stopped, thanked me and canceled all the unnecessary stuff.

Specializes in Peds Urology,primary care, hem/onc.
I love me some Ibee Grumpy. He's one artisanal doc... :D

He would crack up if he could see this post considering how he feels about that word!!! His blog cracks me up and makes me realize that my patients are not nearly as nuts as his!!!!

I have been a traveler since March '11...and on one level HATE IT!! Houston, TX was SCARY because NONE of the docs there trusted any of the nurses...especially travelers. "Hey doc, this kid has a GCS of 7 after the meds you ordered....should we consider intubation because I think we might should consider it." Doc: "yeah ok....whatever you think." "Doc, this kid has a fever of 103.8, can I give him some Tylenol....say 15 mg/kg." Doc: "Well....let's do like 30....umm....45 mg/kg." SCARY!!!

Here in lovely Kayenta, AZ, where the docs are 100% locums....are either 100% FOR the nurses or 100% against us. It blows my mind.

Client is on LSB - log-roll client to assess spine. Client has tenderness so LSB needs to remain. Straps are D/C'ed and doc says "well, we might as well D/C the LSB without the straps on him." Me: "ok, so are you saying we should put the straps back on?" Doc: "well, the LSB won't do him any good if the straps aren't on." Me: "so are you trying to say that you want me to put the straps back on?" Doc: "he needs the LSB" me: "ok, so I guess you are saying that you want the straps on so I'll put the straps back on." PFT! PLEASE *******

The point to all of this is just saying that the hospital I came from was SO WONDERFUL and it was 100% because of the physicians. They were wonderful awesome people. They would come in and defend "my nurse" because a patient was acting out. It was AMAZING! These guys were absolutely the best doctors any nurse could ever hope to work for. After working with them a while, you could kind of gauge what kind of work-up would be ordered. They complemented us, occasionally asked for advice from us (despite them ALL being brilliant) and had respect for all of us as healthcare professionals. Their view was that "we are a team and a family and our common goal was caring for the client." I have yet to ever work with a more cohesive group of people. If we were wrong in what we did, we were respectfully informed and when we were right and worked well, we were told. "Good work guys...you all did exactly the right thing!" AMAZING physicians!! It's a very symbiotic relationship, which is not so easy to come by, as I've discovered.

You're all making me miss my first job. Everyplace I've worked has just progressively gotten worse as far as MD/RN interaction. Now I'm in a hospital where I am starting to see how some doctors have come to disprespect their nurses. It's embarassing the things I hear come out of their mouths.

I was just thinking yesterday how I learned so much in a short period of time at my first job because the MD's were happy to educate us even when they weren't doing it intentionally. Now I have such little interaction with the MD's and even when I do, they don't care to divulge more than the bare minimum necessary to communicate. Lost are my learning opportunities...

Specializes in Emergency, Trauma, Critical Care.

Awesome blog, thank you!

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