Pop Quiz for Would Be or Current Filipino Nurses

suzanne4, RN · May 1, 2008

If one does not have a visa for the US, they will not be able to get one with that ADN. Training in the US for just one semester does not make it an American program by immigration standards. And with the retrogression in place, one is looking at years before getting a chance at a green card for the US. It is not an American degree that you will get, and even so, there are no visas available period for whatever training.

The Philippines will not permit one with that training to sit for the NLE, which in turn makes it not acceptable for immigration and the VSC here.

The requirement is that the nurse hold a first level professional degree or title from there, and since it is not accepted there for licensure, it is not acceptable to immigration here.

Licensure and immigration are two very different things. And since these programs have started, notice that there has not been one that has been issued a visa for the US as there is a retrogression in place as well.

If all other foreign countries require the BSN and the NLE from there, you should consider the reason for that.

ConnieM · May 1, 2008

If one does not have a visa for the US, they will not be able to get one with that ADN. Training in the US for just one semester does not make it an American program by immigration standards. And with the retrogression in place, one is looking at years before getting a chance at a green card for the US. It is not an American degree that you will get, and even so, there are no visas available period for whatever training.
The Philippines will not permit one with that training to sit for the NLE, which in turn makes it not acceptable for immigration and the VSC here.
The requirement is that the nurse hold a first level professional degree or title from there, and since it is not accepted there for licensure, it is not acceptable to immigration here.
Licensure and immigration are two very different things. And since these programs have started, notice that there has not been one that has been issued a visa for the US as there is a retrogression in place as well.
If all other foreign countries require the BSN and the NLE from there, you should consider the reason for that.

Hello Suzanne,

I do hope that you are indeed accurate about immigration standards. I know you are a super-great moderator and I mean no offense when I say: You seem so sure of yourself.

Because the practice of studying in another school in another country and then transferring the students and the studies to the US is not a new concept and is not exclusive to the field of Nursing. It is not a new concept elsewhere nor should it be in the Philippines (if you think Filipinos do not deserve any ounce of it, then that is a different story) . Maybe rare, but certainly not frowned upon in other countries nor is it totally unacceptable and an abhorrent practice in the US as you may have seemed to infer. I could give you specific examples but the Ad Nazi might come in and swoop me down. So, found below are the best I can do to describe it.

Some countries (based on facts and you can do your own search):

1. Cuba has/had a medical program that starts in the Cuba of course, then ends up in Atlanta (not sure) and the graduates will earn a degree in the US. Conclusion: they studied abroad then moved to an affiliate college/university in the US and graduated in the US.

2. St. Kitts has the same ADN or BSN program which follows the same pattern.

3. Philippines (education not visa) has affiliations with a very prestigious Medical Center in CA and has college affiliations in Fresno. Last time I checked, CA and Fresno are in the US.

4. The Brits have a similar program. But I honestly can't remember the name of the affiliate US college.

So, I don't think it wise to make such a sweeping generalization that....... "just because you trained/studied one trimester in the US does not make it an American program by immigration standards."

I am asking about the education not about the visa (immigration standards vs. licensure that you mentioned).

How about this? Just to be sure, I will call this lowly-scum bag-pretending to-be-a-college in the Philippines who seems to be illegally hawking a US diploma/degree. Then, they can send me official and legal documentation of program affiliation with these US schools. I can give you a holler and fax these documents to you privately.

Sounds good?

PS By the way, I am in the US already and have been here for a 100 years and I do not need a visa. I am looking for a cheaper way to an education. No need to placate me because I am not salivating for a visa.

Thank you for your response.

suzanne4, RN · May 1, 2008

Yes, they have those programs but the fact is that the Philippines does not accept it for licensure and that is what makes it not acceptable for immigration purposes in the US. The law here requires that one have completed a program that is considered first level professional RN in the country where they trained, and the two year program in the Philippines does not permit one to even sit for the NLE exam.

Licensure and immigration are two very different things. Just being able to sit for a licensing exam, if they can get that done, does not give one permission to automatically work in the US.

We are also under a retrogression at this time so we have not even seen one graduate from these two year programs get a visa for the US.

Programs that are in the US for one semester still are not considered US programs for immigration purposes. And this is the point that I am trying to make. It does not matter what other countries are doing but the fact that the one in the Philippines does not have one that has gotten thru the visa process here at all.

And the UK has a requirement of three years for their program, and that is not an issue. They do not accept any two year programs for licensure and visas there as well.

The more important issue is where the nurse can use the training and that is being left out of the equation here as well. Any other foreign country requires that the training be four years to qualify for a visa to work there, and with the increase in the number of applicants for a visa from there makes it also harder for one to expect to ever get a visa for the US. And we are also under a retrogression here, no visas in over 17 months or so. And with only coming to the US for one semester to train, one does not qualify for the OPT, and therefore may not work when they graduate here as they will again not be able to get a visa that will permit that.

Just because the BRN has approved a program for licensure, it still does not give one permission to work here.

Immigration and licensure are two very differnt animals here. Same way that the LPN program is being offered in the Philippines and you hear mention of the H2-B visa being available to those that have that training, but in fact it is immigration fraud and those that came here under that are currently being deported.

Your decision as to what to do, but I am only giving the facts about the program that is in place in the Philippines and stating that it is not accepted for the VSC by CGFNS since it does not meet their requirements, and therefore no visa will be issued.

suzanne4, RN · May 1, 2008

I have actually seen all of the documentation of these programs and there are actually several of them. And still have not one seen approved for a visa from there to work in the US.

I spend much time researching this and there are no graduates that have had to go thru immigration to get a visa working here.

It is your choice as to what to do, but this is what is going on here.

suzanne4, RN · May 1, 2008

And the next issue is that the US does not have any visas available, even those that have done all of their training in the US are not being permitted to remain here since they cannot do anything about their status. They are unable to work and if they do not remain as students, then they have to leave the US 60 days after completing their training.

And the two year programs that you have mentioned above are not accelerated programs at all, they are different from the second courser BSN. The program in Fresno only offers the two year ADN, not the BSN.

felisa · May 2, 2008

Hello To All:
Please answer this Pop Quiz!
If costs to get an Accelerated BSN (called a Second Course in the Philippines) is not an issue at all. And all things being equal, assuming both schools will give you a chance to sit for and not necessarily pass the NCLEX, would you choose #1 or #2?
Quiz:
1. Go get your education in a college that takes 5 trimesters in the Philippines and the last trimester (total of 2 years and 1 summer) finishing up in a college in the US. The total cost range is Php65k-Php128k. Upon graduating in the US, you only get an ADN degree and not a BSN degree, but you still graduate as a US student.
2. Go get your education in a university that charges roughly Php700/ unit, takes about 2-3 years depending on your pacing (full time or part-time). You don't graduate as a US student but you get a BSN degree rather than an ADN degree, nonetheless?
Anyone want to answer this quick quiz? Just need a general feel for the vox populi. :stone
Thank you for your time.

In my opinion, a BSN degree would take you more places. But I am personally against accelerated courses. BTW, they are not officially called "Second Course" in the Philippines. Second coursers are simply those who previously graduated from another course and taking up nursing as a second course. Not necessarily taking up "accelerated courses" or courses that run for 2-3 yrs. I myself am a second courser and finished nursing in 4 school years + 3 summers. The same number of years that a regular first courser would take to finish. There is so much to learn in nursing and I don't think all the important matters will be covered and mastered in an accelerated course. I even heard nursing will run for 5 years starting 2009 to allow more time for mastery.

Nursing is popular, especially in the Philippines, because of the benefits (especially monetory) that it brings. As a Filipino, I totally understand. Life is not easy in our country. However, nursing is a career that saves lives- something that many overlook. We should look beyond ourselves and also consider those who will be affected by the kind of care that we give. For me, taking accelerated courses in the Philippines is like buying your way to a nursing career. I think it's best to just follow the ideal, no shortcuts.

My two cents :twocents:

Advanced Practice Columnist / Guide · May 2, 2008

Hello Suzanne,
I do hope that you are indeed accurate about immigration standards. I know you are a super-great moderator and I mean no offense when I say: You seem so sure of yourself.
Because the practice of studying in another school in another country and then transferring the students and the studies to the US is not a new concept and is not exclusive to the field of Nursing. It is not a new concept elsewhere nor should it be in the Philippines (if you think Filipinos do not deserve any ounce of it, then that is a different story) . Maybe rare, but certainly not frowned upon in other countries nor is it totally unacceptable and an abhorrent practice in the US as you may have seemed to infer. I could give you specific examples but the Ad Nazi might come in and swoop me down. So, found below are the best I can do to describe it.
Some countries (based on facts and you can do your own search):
1. Cuba has/had a medical program that starts in the Cuba of course, then ends up in Atlanta (not sure) and the graduates will earn a degree in the US. Conclusion: they studied abroad then moved to an affiliate college/university in the US and graduated in the US.
2. St. Kitts has the same ADN or BSN program which follows the same pattern.
3. Philippines (education not visa) has affiliations with a very prestigious Medical Center in CA and has college affiliations in Fresno. Last time I checked, CA and Fresno are in the US.
4. The Brits have a similar program. But I honestly can't remember the name of the affiliate US college.
So, I don't think it wise to make such a sweeping generalization that....... "just because you trained/studied one trimester in the US does not make it an American program by immigration standards."
I am asking about the education not about the visa (immigration standards vs. licensure that you mentioned).
How about this? Just to be sure, I will call this lowly-scum bag-pretending to-be-a-college in the Philippines who seems to be illegally hawking a US diploma/degree. Then, they can send me official and legal documentation of program affiliation with these US schools. I can give you a holler and fax these documents to you privately.
Sounds good?
PS By the way, I am in the US already and have been here for a 100 years and I do not need a visa. I am looking for a cheaper way to an education. No need to placate me because I am not salivating for a visa.
Thank you for your response.

I would be very suspicious of programs that are supposedly joint ventures between a Philippine and a US university. Find out first if they actually have graduates that have successfully completed the program and had no trouble being licensed in the profession they were trained for. You mentioned medical schools. You're right, there are foreign medical schools in the Caribbean that have students do clinical rotations in US hospitals. The graduates of these programs are still considered foreign medical graduates and are not given priority with residency program placements. In fact, some of these schools are not even recognized by Boards of Medicine in some states (Ca, Texas, etc.), hence, the graduates are not eligible to sit for the USMLE in these states.

Silverdragon102, BSN · May 2, 2008

If the plan is to get a nursing qualification which will enable you to work in another country then look at that country's requirements before deciding on the course. What is the point on spending both money and time on a course which is not recognised in the country where you trained expecting other countries to recognise it. Not sure how one course in the US will make you a US student and even then if using it as a way to stay in the US and work with retrogression you are looking at a wait so beneficial gaining expereice which is hard if you do not meet requirements

In the UK the NMC states that it will not accept anyone who is a second level nurse or equivalent ie Enrolled nurse, licensed practical nurse and so on. It looks at a 3 year training course at least half (or 2300 hours) must be clinical or practical and at least one third (1533 hours) theory. NMC Overseas nurses not from the EU It would then be common sense to ensure your training meets their requirements. Surely the same commen sense wold be the same for another country

ConnieM · May 28, 2008

I would be very suspicious of programs that are supposedly joint ventures between a Philippine and a US university. Find out first if they actually have graduates that have successfully completed the program and had no trouble being licensed in the profession they were trained for. You mentioned medical schools. You're right, there are foreign medical schools in the Caribbean that have students do clinical rotations in US hospitals. The graduates of these programs are still considered foreign medical graduates and are not given priority with residency program placements. In fact, some of these schools are not even recognized by Boards of Medicine in some states (Ca, Texas, etc.), hence, the graduates are not eligible to sit for the USMLE in these states.

Hi,

I did check and the first group of 12 students are on there way to Fresno this May to complete their last semester (4 months). I talked to the School Administrator/Director and depending on the performance of the 12 students, they have an agreement with Kaiser Permanente in CA to hire the 12 students (again based on their performance, passing the NCLEX, etc, etc.). Those who opt not to work with KP will have the option of continuing their BSN in a school in MO (I think.)

The only reason I mentioned medical school agreements between countries was just to prove a point that there exists such agreements between countries in the realm of education and that it is not a "frowned upon" policy, nor is this a new concept. I am aware that the FMG are treated like second class citizens in the USA and that they have no priority over other students. I am not exactly sure by what you said, that they are not eligible to sit for the USMLE, because they are the ones that are thrown into the rural, under-served, under-paid, over-worked areas that no US MD wants, so they must have taken the USMLE before practicing. I worked with several of them, so I know these FMGs personally and I can privately send you their names. (Btw, FMG means foreign-educated, meaning they have never had a single subject/course taken in the US and have never set foot in a US school-like setting and their bottom has never sat on a chair in a US school campus).

I was just stating a fact to Suzanne that such an agreement exists whether or not the student is hired on or not. Somethings are true, even if you do not believe in it. Even if you look down on that particular country, even if you think they are incapable and incompetent, even if you think that they are not as smart as Americans, even if you think they are the stupidest creatures that roamed the earth. Would you be able to stop and think for awhile that it could be possible that such an agreement can exist, second class citizen, non-employable or not?

Not convinced? Give you one more example. A close personal friend studied engineering in the Philippines. Applied to a school in IO, finished up in the last 2 semesters in IO. Hired on by a computer software company in Atlanta. Lucky? Or just competent? Or was there an agreement between the school in the Philippines and the school in IO? If this can happen in Engineering, what more a profession such as Nursing?

The same way that trade agreements exists in durable and non-durable goods between the US and other countries, it is not a new concept to have trade agreements in terms of education and/or experience. I have had some professors in my MBA class in SLC who were foreign-educated (meaning not a single class taken in the USA) from Canada, Middle East, India and Mexico and they were hired on to teach and work here. What more students who initially studied in other countries like the Philippines and ended up in Fresno to complete their education?

One can argue it is a totally different profession, but the fact I am trying to make that nobody seems to catch on, is that " it is NOT a new concept". It is not frowned upon, it is not illegal (of course, you should check credentials).

If not, Kaiser Permanente will not even allow their well-renowned name to be even remotely associated with this lowly, scum bag school. It would be a federal offense to claim such and is punishable by law (both here and abroad) for illegally hawking the Kaiser Permanente name. Or else this lady Director should be thrown in the slammer for misrepresentation. She should be disbarred from her profession and her reputation must be smeared. And if I do find out that it is all a scam, believe me, I will be the first one to report this school to the federal authorities, but for the meantime I am offering a fact that Suzanne seems to disagree, that it is NOT A NEW CONCEPT.

If you research the ADN/BSN school in St. Kitts. I believe they offer the same kind of program. Taking the medical school out of the equation, this Nursing School has the same program as the one in the Philippines. I doubt that the island of St. Kitts is better than the Philippines.

Thank you for the opportunity in cerebral calisthenics.

suzanne4, RN · May 28, 2008

Yes, there may be joint ventures in place and that has never been the issue but the fact remains that licensure and immigration are two very distinct and different things. And there are no visas for them to be able to work at Kaiser when they are done with their training. Coming to the US for a semester does not even meet the requirements for obtaining the OPT either. And these programs were put into place before the retrogression started.

Not one of the students has actually been thru the immigration process and have it approved and that is what my complaint is. No one knows what is going to happen with that. Immigration still has their own rules and a program that is only two years and is primarily completed out of the US, and in the Philippines, should not be accepted here for immigration since those that complete that program are unable to get licensed in the Philippines since it is not a BSN.

And your friend in engineering got the Bachelor's degree, this is the minimum training accepted for the H1-B and that is also the visa that they received. We do not have H1-B visas available here in most places for nurses and have not had them for several years. And Kaiser facilities are unionized, they do not permit temporary workers either. So these students will be returning home as there are not going to be any visas available for them to begin work.

And as we have said before, having an employer and even passing of the NCLEX exam does not get someone a visa right away, even if they did all of their training in the US, there just are not any visas available for them to use. And there is currently no way to adjust any type of visa, whether student or tourist to be able to remain in the US.

And I never called the program "scum" or anything else like that to begin with, but stated a fact that it does not meet immigration requirements in most cases. And there has not been one person that has gone thru that program and has been given a visa to work here.

Getting licensed does not give one permission to work here in the US, and that is my major concern. These students are getting promised things that no one is going to be able to honor. And attending school for four months in the US is not any different than being a guest student here, their degree is still not going to be called a US degree. But even it were, the fact is again, no visas and no way to remain to work here.

The wait is about five years for the green card, and the two year program does not qualify for the H1-B visa either since it is not the BSN.

ConnieM · May 29, 2008

Yes, they have those programs but the fact is that the Philippines does not accept it for licensure and that is what makes it not acceptable for immigration purposes in the US. The law here requires that one have completed a program that is considered first level professional RN in the country where they trained, and the two year program in the Philippines does not permit one to even sit for the NLE exam.
Licensure and immigration are two very different things. Just being able to sit for a licensing exam, if they can get that done, does not give one permission to automatically work in the US.
We are also under a retrogression at this time so we have not even seen one graduate from these two year programs get a visa for the US.
Programs that are in the US for one semester still are not considered US programs for immigration purposes. And this is the point that I am trying to make. It does not matter what other countries are doing but the fact that the one in the Philippines does not have one that has gotten thru the visa process here at all.
And the UK has a requirement of three years for their program, and that is not an issue. They do not accept any two year programs for licensure and visas there as well.
The more important issue is where the nurse can use the training and that is being left out of the equation here as well. Any other foreign country requires that the training be four years to qualify for a visa to work there, and with the increase in the number of applicants for a visa from there makes it also harder for one to expect to ever get a visa for the US. And we are also under a retrogression here, no visas in over 17 months or so. And with only coming to the US for one semester to train, one does not qualify for the OPT, and therefore may not work when they graduate here as they will again not be able to get a visa that will permit that.
Just because the BRN has approved a program for licensure, it still does not give one permission to work here.
Immigration and licensure are two very differnt animals here. Same way that the LPN program is being offered in the Philippines and you hear mention of the H2-B visa being available to those that have that training, but in fact it is immigration fraud and those that came here under that are currently being deported.
Your decision as to what to do, but I am only giving the facts about the program that is in place in the Philippines and stating that it is not accepted for the VSC by CGFNS since it does not meet their requirements, and therefore no visa will be issued.

Thank you for your response.

But I think you are confused about my original question.

Please, I am on bended knees, begging you to understand that my question was not a question of immigration, status, retrogression, visas, passports. You have been beating that subject like a dead horse. All of your posts is replete with that information. I know that already. And there is no stone unturned for you, about this subject in the International Post that you visit. You really make sure to put these Filipinos in their place. I can see that and I can read that in all your posts.

But, please do not lump me with all those other posts that are ogling, salivating, desiring, heavily-sweating, hand-wringing for a visa in the US.

To be very blunt, I do not really care about immigration, visa, status, passport, retrogression, deportation, papers, border patrol, illegal immigration, Minute Man, or whatever the flavor of the day is about.

It was a simple question on which educational path to take in a country that has the least expense and the lowest cost of living, in contrast to the very expensive education here.

I am living here in US and have been living here for many, many, many years. My question was specific for me, for my needs, for my concerns, for my financial issues and NOT for immigration, work visa, status, deportation issues.

Hope that settles the issue.