Richard Titmus wrote in his concept of social policy about what he called the 'stranger'. He said the ultimate in social policy is to give to the stranger because you recognise that she or he is the same as you. You don't give to the stranger because they are hungry or because they are tired but because you recognise the problems of hunger and tiredness. In other words you see them as part of yourself and part of what you are responsible for. If you see them as 'the Other, you don't get that sense of responsibility.
John Rawls, who talks about justice, also uses a similar sort of model by saying that if you punish other people you always have to work on the basis that it might happen to you, which is another formulation in a slightly different format.
It is a fact in the USA that 64 million people do not have health insurance, which means there is a third world country within a country that boasts to the world that it is apparently the best.
I think you and I agree on most points. The Canadian health care system seems to work well for Canada. I just don't believe that it would work as well as what we already have here. However, as with any health care system, it does have it's problems. Most of my responses here are not argument with you, but with others. A point or two:
Thanks for the clarification on the supplemental care policies.
I don't know any Canadians who have come across the border for treatment either, but neither of us can deny it happens. I don't particularly see this as anything against the Canadian health care system itself, but as proof that it would not work in the US, in as much as we seem to be an instant gratification society.
We agree on rationing.
The short version is that in my life, I have already had to (and still must) deal with two government run healthcare systems. One in the military, and the other the VA. Any time government employees get involved in health care, the system motto seems to become "we don't care, because we don't have to." Given what I have seen, I don't want our government anywhere near most of my health care issues.
Welfare, lazy people better get up off their couch
and get to work. For you who have no insurance get a
job that offers health insurance. if you cant, get
yourself some education/training to get a better job.
THIS IS THE LAND OF EQUAL OPPURTUNITY NOT EQUAL
OUTCOMES! IF YOU WANT THAT move to a socialist
republic. We All MAke are own CHOICES and if you chose
to have children before you were married or had a
decent income that is YOUR PROBLEM and YOUR RESPONSIBILITY. WHY SHOULD I PAY
HIGHER TAXES FOR YOUR CHOICE.or move to Canada
where 60% of your income goes to the government (to pay
for health insurance for all)
What people trying to make a living? Ever seen section
8 housing in Philadelphia? Well its expanding and
moving on in to a neighborhood near you. You may think
that it is just one family moving in, but then the bus
load drops off and there are 10 people living in a two
bedroom house. Are these people getting off there
butts and going to work/ or school while they are not
paying a mortgage? and able to get Tuition GRANTS for
school? Absolutely NOT! They just sit on the porch all
day and drink and smoke what?
I dont have time for people who have been hypnotized
by the LIBERAL MEDIA HYPE. I worked 2 jobs while I
went to school part time, and had only every other
Saturday off for 2 years, SO I dont need to hear
anymore whoa is me, whoa is the poor because I have
been there, done that and so can everyone else. There
are to many people living in this country who do not
take responsibility for themselves or their families
and expect something to be given to them for nothing.
So stop boo hoo-ing for all the destitute masses and
really take a good look at them. MOST of them are
there by CHOICE! Take for instance the unwed mother of
3 with 3 BABY DADDY'S. Wasn't it her choice to have
sex unprotected!! As if you would even want your
daughter to think that this is OK and acceptable
behavior, I think NOT. As if you would want your
daughter to grow up accepting that being a drug addict
is OK because its a disease process??????? oR AS YOU WOULD WANT YOUR daughter to aspire to be a waitress? I think not.
Do not accept this. Do not lower your standards for
anyone.
If people were truly poor in this country there would not be an obesity problem, would there? I dont see anyone living on dirt floors do you, I only see people living in dirt and that is their CHOICE.
I think we do agree Kevin. I've said a million times that I believe the US needs an American solution to their issues, not a Canadian one and vice versa. Just have to correct the misperceptions all the same since people in the US generally equate universal with Canada and they really don't understand the complexities or how the system is run. Few Americans I know are aware that there are private medical facilities in Canada or that we aren't government employees or that there is queue jumping all the time (people on worker's comp, in the RCMP or the military or jail all get to be treated without the longer wait times). For instance, look at nursebonkers assertion that 60% of your income goes to pay taxes in Canada. Complete and total bull. People are constantly being spoon fed misinformation.
On the flip side, you should hear me with my Canadian friends when the US system comes up in conversation ("No, they won't let you bleed to death because you don't have insurance" "No, they don't go through your pockets looking for money before they treat you" "No, nurses aren't treated like waitresses"....LOL!).
Welfare, lazy people better get up off their couch
and get to work. For you who have no insurance get a
job that offers health insurance. if you cant, get
yourself some education/training to get a better job.
THIS IS THE LAND OF EQUAL OPPURTUNITY NOT EQUAL
OUTCOMES! IF YOU WANT THAT move to a socialist
republic. We All MAke are own CHOICES and if you chose
to have children before you were married or had a
decent income that is YOUR PROBLEM and YOUR RESPONSIBILITY. WHY SHOULD I PAY
HIGHER TAXES FOR YOUR CHOICE.or move to Canada
where 60% of your income goes to the government (to pay
for health insurance for all)
What people trying to make a living? Ever seen section
8 housing in Philadelphia? Well its expanding and
moving on in to a neighborhood near you. You may think
that it is just one family moving in, but then the bus
load drops off and there are 10 people living in a two
bedroom house. Are these people getting off there
butts and going to work/ or school while they are not
paying a mortgage? and able to get Tuition GRANTS for
school? Absolutely NOT! They just sit on the porch all
day and drink and smoke what?
I dont have time for people who have been hypnotized
by the LIBERAL MEDIA HYPE. I worked 2 jobs while I
went to school part time, and had only every other
Saturday off for 2 years, SO I dont need to hear
anymore whoa is me, whoa is the poor because I have
been there, done that and so can everyone else. There
are to many people living in this country who do not
take responsibility for themselves or their families
and expect something to be given to them for nothing.
So stop boo hoo-ing for all the destitute masses and
really take a good look at them. MOST of them are
there by CHOICE! Take for instance the unwed mother of
3 with 3 BABY DADDY'S. Wasn't it her choice to have
sex unprotected!! As if you would even want your
daughter to think that this is OK and acceptable
behavior, I think NOT. As if you would want your
daughter to grow up accepting that being a drug addict
is OK because its a disease process??????? oR AS YOU WOULD WANT YOUR daughter to aspire to be a waitress? I think not.
Do not accept this. Do not lower your standards for
anyone.
If people were truly poor in this country there would not be an obesity problem, would there? I dont see anyone living on dirt floors do you, I only see people living in dirt and that is their CHOICE.
Yes!! I totally agree.
Just like I said in my post awhile back...the poor have a choice most of the time. They can either choose to get off the couch or go to the free clinic for adequate health care.
Our healthcare system is not to blame.
(OMG, I think I'm becoming more and more Republican all the time. :chuckle )
If the latest election tells us anything it is this. If we cut off all programs to assist the poor they will eventually go away... or die off. Problem solved.
Who said anything about cutting off all programs to assist the poor?
The programs are OUT THERE!! It takes some initiative on the part of the person in need to seek help when they need it.
I don't foresee 'door-to-door' free clinics in our future. Part of the blame must be placed in the laps of those that choose, that's right, CHOOSE not to take part in the programs available to them.
Specializes in Addictions/rehab, mental health, hospice.
All interesting points on healthcare.
I don't like that we have a system where:
1. We can't buy pharmaceuticals from whoever or wherever we want. Isn't that the American way? The claim that 'the safety can't be assured' is just plain bogus, and they know it. Canada has certified pharmacies that sell drugs that are often made here in the U.S.
2. We have a system where WE pay a for a great deal of the research that goes into developing pharmaceuticals, but then pay exorbitant amounts for them.
3. The pharmaceutical companies claim that they spend so much of their high profits on research, an untrue assertion. They actually spend more on advertising than they do on research, usually.
4. Some people cannot find insurance, even if they want to pay for it out of their own pocket. That's just wrong.
5. An individual wanting to pay for his own health care--cash--will be billed FAR more than the hospital will bill an insurance company for the exact same procedure or hospital stay.
6. Where we take what is truly socialised education for granted, but are terrified of the idea of socialised medicine.
7. People use the emergency room as a doctor's office because their employer won't let them buy into a health insurance plan.
8. Companies like Wal-Mart make money hand over fist while their poorly-paid and uninsured or underinsured employees use emergency rooms at taxpayer expense.
9. Our country becomes less competitive because companies would rather locate in a country where the government pays for health insurance (e.g., Canada). Automakers have already discovered this.
10. We pay far more, as a percentage of our GNP, for healthcare than any other country on the planet, and that percentage has kept rising.
some stats:
At current rate of increase, number of years before more than half of all Americans are either uninsured or seriously underinsured 20
Number of other fully industrialized countries that do not guarantee minimum healthcare to every single citizen 0
Annual per capita income in Shanghai $350
Annual per capita income in New York City $20,500
Money spent on medical care in Shanghai annually $38 per person
Money spent on medical care in New York City annually $3,000 per person
Number of infants born in Shanghai who die before their first birthday 10.9 per 1,000 births
Number of infants born in New York City who die before their first birthday 13.3 per 1,000 births
Life expectancy at birth in Shanghai 75.5 years
Life expectancy at birth in New York City for people of color 70 years
Life expectancy at birth in New York City for whites 73 years
Percentage of U.S. GNP spent on healthcare in 1935 3 percent
Percentage of U.S. GNP spent on healthcare in 1965 6 percent
Percentage of U.S. GNP spent on healthcare in 1995 14 percent
At current rate of growth, number of years before U.S. healthcare costs would exceed nation's entire GNP 75
Percentage by which per capita U.S. healthcare expenditures exceed those of Canada 40 percent
Percentage by which per capita U.S. healthcare expenditures exceed those of Germany 90 percent
Percentage by which per capita U.S. healthcare expenditures exceed those of Japan 100 percent
Primary reason U.S. automobiles are more expensive than Japanese cars considered to be of comparable quality Higher employee healthcare costs
Year the average Fortune 500 company's healthcare costs are expected to equal 60 percent of after-tax profits 2000
Average amount of time U.S. patients are allowed to speak before being interrupted by their doctors 18 seconds
Percentage of U.S. patients who, once interrupted, go on to finish their statement or question 2 percent
Widely held belief among Americans The U.S. has the best healthcare system in the world
U.S. rank among world nations in per capita expenditure on medical care 1st
U.S. rank among world nations in malpractice suits 1st
U.S. rank among world nations in infant mortality 25th
Specializes in Addictions/rehab, mental health, hospice.
Kevin wrote:
>>>>>The short version is that in my life, I have already had to (and still must)
>>>deal with two government run healthcare systems. One in the military, and
>>>the other the VA. Any time government employees get involved in health >>>care, the system motto seems to become "we don't care, because we don't
>>>have to." Given what I have seen, I don't want our government anywhere >>>near most of my health care issues.
I worked in the VA system, and I don't recall anyone saying or acting as though they 'didn't care because they didn't have to'. We worked hard to provide the best care under difficult circumstances and under difficult budget restraints.
Can you imagine a system where caring for working military and veterans was a priority, rather than afterthought, somewhere far down the list past whatever new, overpriced, unneeded weapons system they wanted? The House of Representatives recently voted on the 2004 budget which will cut funding for veteran's health care and benefit programs by nearly $25 billion over the next ten years. We're quick to support a war, but slow to support those who fight them. Does that seem right to you?
I have done a great deal of traveling overseas, and because of idiopathic anaphylaxis, I have found myself in emergency rooms around the world. Not that I would recommend this method of checking out healthcare facilities, but it did prove interesting (afterwards).
Aside from Saudi Arabia, where I lived, and was hospitalized twice and spent a day in the ER getting IV Benadryl and steroids, which were completed free, I also spent time hospitalized in Sri Lanka, where I received excellent care and medications, both p.o. and I.V. - treatment completely free of charge, aside from the few dollars for take home meds at discharge. This was at the 7th Day Adventist Hospital in Kandy. Naturally it happened in the middle of the night, and the doctor was awakened. He stayed by my side the rest of the night.
India, where I was seen by a physician (who made a house call) spent hours with me and gave me meds for a total of the equivalent of $10. And in Pakistan, where I was seen by a physician, then treated in an E.R. with I.V. meds, and later advised hospitalization, all free. Was in a small town, very poor, hospital ward appeared quite substandard to our western eyes, but the care was excellent, aside from the fact that they do not feed you. In that case, relatives of other patients bring you food. Free. And these are not people who look like they can afford to feed themselves, let alone an American. Taxi driver stayed with me for moral support. And absolutely refused any money.
Also sprained my ankle (was afraid it was broken) in Zanzibar. Was advised to wait until I could leave for care, and when I saw the hospital I understood the advice, and did wait.
In contrast, when I had an attack in Japan, the physician did not speak English and basically turned us away. Was told it would cost a fortune for care as well. Luckily, by that time I carried meds with me and had to give myself I.V. meds. My hands were shaking so badly that I missed the vein and had very impressive bruises, let me tell you!
I found it very enlightening and very humbling the care I recieved in what are considered third world countries and just wanted to pass the info along. :)
The care in 3rd world countries available for Westerners is far different than the care available for the residents of that country.
My daughter is from a 3rd world country. At the time of her adoption, mortality for children was 50% by 5 yrs of age. There was 1 doc per >100,000 people. People in her country just could not afford healthcare -- tho for me it was "pennies" if I chose a local hospital, equivalent to here in cost if I went to the "Western" clinic.
I had to use a "local" clinic for certain tests in order to get her visa. While there would be lines formed, I would always be ushered to the front because I was the one w/ $$.
I had to say this made me very uncomfortable, but after awhile, the exhaustion of living in the country and dealing w/ the government in trying to process the adoption... well, I just started going w/ the flow.
I have to believe that people that practice medicine in these countries are much more compassionate (overall) because there is little money to be made. (Sweeping generalization.)
I. We can't buy pharmaceuticals from whoever or wherever we want. Isn't that the American way? The claim that 'the safety can't be assured' is just plain bogus, and they know it. Canada has certified pharmacies that sell drugs that are often made here in the U.S.
2. We have a system where WE pay a for a great deal of the research that goes into developing pharmaceuticals, but then pay exorbitant amounts for them.
3. The pharmaceutical companies claim that they spend so much of their high profits on research, an untrue assertion. They actually spend more on advertising than they do on research, usually.
You are so right about the pharm. companies spending more on advertising than research. I continue to rant about these companies and their strong lobby in the USA.
I also throw out there that the ins. companies are to blame for our current state of health care. They are "for profit" and are not in it to help...
My dh and I pay >1200/mo for insurance premiums, out-of-pocket! (He is self-employed.)
How in the heck has our quality of care decreased over the last several decades, while caregivers make less money, and the great investments are in ins and drugs...
A percentage is too abstract - the truth about America is its a land full of inequalities and dollars don't grow on trees. There is also a lack of human rights - well that's what some of the rest of the world see!
At least in UK healthcare is for all
Larry, can you name a country where there are no inequalities? Are all Brits on the same level as the Mother Queen? As for human rights, why do you think we are made up of the most diverse population of any other country? Because they come here for the freedoms we have to offer. Only in America can a poor immigrant become a millionaire.... it happens every day. No, the government does not "officially" provide us all with "free" health insurance, but we aren't taxed to death so that we can usually afford quality health care of our own choosing. And those that can't afford it are not turned away. (See previous posts.) I fear a government system that decides who I can see when I'm sick, and when I can see them. (Sounds like a giant HMO.) The system's not perfect, but we still have the best healthcare on the planet.
).
kmchugh
801 Posts
Fergus
I think you and I agree on most points. The Canadian health care system seems to work well for Canada. I just don't believe that it would work as well as what we already have here. However, as with any health care system, it does have it's problems. Most of my responses here are not argument with you, but with others. A point or two:
Thanks for the clarification on the supplemental care policies.
I don't know any Canadians who have come across the border for treatment either, but neither of us can deny it happens. I don't particularly see this as anything against the Canadian health care system itself, but as proof that it would not work in the US, in as much as we seem to be an instant gratification society.
We agree on rationing.
The short version is that in my life, I have already had to (and still must) deal with two government run healthcare systems. One in the military, and the other the VA. Any time government employees get involved in health care, the system motto seems to become "we don't care, because we don't have to." Given what I have seen, I don't want our government anywhere near most of my health care issues.
Kevin McHugh