PBS Frontline documentary on our current healthcare system. Discuss.

Agrippa · Jul 22, 2009

What I found interesting is that private insurance companies want mandatory coverage for everyone. The reason being that it dilutes their risk in their cohort pool. Thus instead of people buying insurance only when they're older and/or be at greater risk, they will diversify and spread out the risk.

This ends up being better for private insurance since the risky people can be offset by the health young people who are mandated to get care and individuals as well as society's risk are decreased by individuals now being covered as well s society no longer having to eat the cost of people not being able to pay bills and declaring bankruptcy.

MedSurgeMess · Jul 27, 2009

I thought that this was a wonderful show, very insightful to what is really going on in the US with our healthcare issues. I made my DH watch it with me, and he opposes any kind of socialized/universal system. His statement-"these bums should just get jobs and quit whining about...blah, blah, blah...." Now he sees that jobs are hard to find, jobs with insurance are even more rare, and that the US is in critical condition, excuse the pun. Not that he will admit it, but I did see the light bulb go on in his noggin while we were watching. I even sent the link to one of my old professors that I knew during my BSN program, as she likes to use the "Frontline" videos online for discussion forums. I also teach prn, and may try to incorporate this the next class that I have. This was very much worth the watch. It just makes me feel extra protective of those who don't have, but most definitely need.

Agrippa · Jul 27, 2009

Politics is very much a part of one's belief system and how they see their world.

I've given a lot of thought to this. I find that people who tend to consider themselves as conservatives adhere to the model that "they're poor/unhealthy/drug addict/on welfare etc" because they are "lazy, listless, con artists, stupid" - generally that one's circumstances are entirely because of the choices they've made in life.

I've observed that others who don't prescribe to these beliefs have a more nuanced understanding of society. They realize that sometimes bad things happen to good people, that sometimes even the person that is working hard and doing everything right just can't get a good break.

Now at the core of each belief, the difference is control. Conservatives believe that ultimately, one has control of their own life and thus, the results of their life is because of the choices they made. They could control this for the better or not and the sin is in their not controlling for the better.

If they were to actually dispel this belief, it would crumble their foundation of control. If they actually acknowledged that in life we don't have control of many things, I imagine many people would be truly frightened. Psychologically, the foundation of their conception of reality becomes endangered. They must not face the dark anxiety of being in a chaotic world where ultimately, they have no control.

Thus, these ideals of the efficacy of one's will over their universe is an important one, one which could lead to understandable fear and panic. I wonder if for some, this is why they can't even entertain the idea of people in our society, just not being able to control or will their way into things like better healthcare or a better job.

Anyway, yea the film is very instructive and would be a great primer on our current healthcare debate.

MedSurgeMess · Jul 27, 2009

I couldn't have said it much better if I tried!

PostOpPrincess, BSN, RN · Jul 27, 2009

Politics is very much a part of one's belief system and how they see their world.
I've given a lot of thought to this. I find that people who tend to consider themselves as conservatives adhere to the model that "they're poor/unhealthy/drug addict/on welfare etc" because they are "lazy, listless, con artists, stupid" - generally that one's circumstances are entirely because of the choices they've made in life.
Wrong. I am a conservative. Choices are made, true, those of us who "think" (yes, some of us are quite intelligent) know that there are certain things that occur in life in which no one has control.
I've observed that others who don't prescribe to these beliefs have a more nuanced understanding of society. They realize that sometimes bad things happen to good people, that sometimes even the person that is working hard and doing everything right just can't get a good break.
I can tell which way you lean already by the descriptives you utilized for the two groups.
Now at the core of each belief, the difference is control. Conservatives believe that ultimately, one has control of their own life and thus, the results of their life is because of the choices they made. They could control this for the better or not and the sin is in their not controlling for the better.
Wrong again. Most conservatives believe that if they work hard enough, they will bear the fruit of their work. Thus if they choose to work hard and persevere, somehow it will pay off. They also know that sometimes they start on one road, and end up on another. They leave those changes to a belief that a "higher power" is ultimately in control and the conservatives are okay with that.
If they were to actually dispel this belief, it would crumble their foundation of control. If they actually acknowledged that in life we don't have control of many things, I imagine many people would be truly frightened. Psychologically, the foundation of their conception of reality becomes endangered. They must not face the dark anxiety of being in a chaotic world where ultimately, they have no control.
Hm. You make it sound like they all need therapy. Wow; how, um, unbiased of you. I don't think so. This is a major chaotic world; the difference is most conservatives I know have GREAT coping mechanisms and spiritual support.
Thus, these ideals of the efficacy of one's will over their universe is an important one, one which could lead to understandable fear and panic. I wonder if for some, this is why they can't even entertain the idea of people in our society, just not being able to control or will their way into things like better healthcare or a better job.
Fear and panic? Yeah, um, okay. I think it's just that most of the conservatives have an independent spirit and don't like being told what to do. It's about choices being taken away--perhaps a form of control. I don't know--sometimes people negate the whole freedom of choice thing. Most conservatives...well, they don't.
Anyway, yea the film is very instructive and would be a great primer on our current healthcare debate.

This is the only thing you said about the film; everything else was a slant and anti-conservative. Too bad you don't really know them as well as you have, um, "analyzed."

Agrippa · Jul 27, 2009

This is the only thing you said about the film; everything else was a slant and anti-conservative. Too bad you don't really know them as well as you have, um, "analyzed."

First I must say that I am flattered that you're following my posts. Moving on.

Actually, I know a lot of conservatives. I grew up in a very conservative area. But they are all true, Goldwater conservatives. Not your neoconservative, Evangelical brand. All the one's I know are conservative because they're rich and don't want to be taxed more - you know the type that go sailing on the weekend and have beach houses. They are actually embarrassed by many of the religious components of the Republican Party. But anyway, I digress.

Clearly I offered my analysis of certain conservatives as an opinion. You spent your whole post just saying that my opinion because in your opinion, I am wrong. This line of conversation is really pointless and I can already see that theres really very little chance of any meaningful insights.

And I really do hope you stay posted. Be well.

Agrippa · Jul 27, 2009

Oh and BTW, I do think if more people were in therapy, nothing bad could come of it. Especially our political leaders. Think of it - how would history be different if Hitler or Stalin were in therapy? What if the leader of every country right now were in therapy?

I'll go out on a limb here and predict that we may have world peace - even if for just a moment.

Agrippa · Jul 27, 2009

Wrong again. Most conservatives believe that if they work hard enough, they will bear the fruit of their work. Thus if they choose to work hard and persevere, somehow it will pay off. They also know that sometimes they start on one road, and end up on another. They leave those changes to a belief that a "higher power" is ultimately in control and the conservatives are okay with that.

You're explanation of your beliefs confirms my analysis. You believe that you can control most everything in your life. That which you can't control, is in the hands of ultimate control - that of a supernatural power. Thus, even in this case, it pre-empts the potential anxiety you may feel because ultimately it is as you say in a "higher power's" control. You also hope that this higher power also has your best interest in mind and thus, nothing bad will happen.

I can understand why this idea of control in one sense or another is comforting. Facing the reality of the ultimate lack of choice and in the face of chaos causes real existential anxiety. I am not saying this at all to be malign you in any way. I can very much empathize and feel that many people can also at some point in their life. I am just commenting on how these anxieties can affect one's world paradigm and in turn, one's political belief.

PostOpPrincess, BSN, RN · Jul 27, 2009

First I must say that I am flattered that you're following my posts. Moving on.
Actually, I know a lot of conservatives. I grew up in a very conservative area. But they are all true, Goldwater conservatives. Not your neoconservative, Evangelical brand. All the one's I know are conservative because they're rich and don't want to be taxed more - you know the type that go sailing on the weekend and have beach houses. They are actually embarrassed by many of the religious components of the Republican Party. But anyway, I digress.
Clearly I offered my analysis of certain conservatives as an opinion. You spent your whole post just saying that my opinion because in your opinion, I am wrong. This line of conversation is really pointless and I can already see that theres really very little chance of any meaningful insights.
And I really do hope you stay posted. Be well.

I am well; believe it or not, I am probably one of the few people on this earth not medicated and coping well--even after 18 years of being a nurse. Must be the pragmatism in me. =)

PostOpPrincess, BSN, RN · Jul 27, 2009

Oh and BTW, I do think if more people were in therapy, nothing bad could come of it. Especially our political leaders. Think of it - how would history be different if Hitler or Stalin were in therapy? What if the leader of every country right now were in therapy?
I'll go out on a limb here and predict that we may have world peace - even if for just a moment.

Ah, and that is where we differ; Stalin and Hitler were, in my opine, inherently evil and not fixable--hence someone we couldn't control. Fix them? Just like the mini Iranian prez who wants to make nukes? Really? Change him? I don't think it's going to work. They are what they are; can't change them, can't control them. Have to deal with them the way they are...oh, wait, does that mean I am not a control freak? Hm.....Yeah, I think they call that acceptance of reality.

Tell you what; let's fix OUR leaders why voting them in or out. How about the leaders really think about the people and not how to get themselves re-elected? How about they just do the job they are suppose to do and not get their backs scratched by lobbyists? Seems very common sense to me---and oh, maybe, no therapy needed. Not against therapy. Just the damn common sense in me. Can't seem to get rid of it.

PostOpPrincess, BSN, RN · Jul 27, 2009

You're explanation of your beliefs confirms my analysis. You believe that you can control most everything in your life. That which you can't control, is in the hands of ultimate control - that of a supernatural power. Thus, even in this case, it pre-empts the potential anxiety you may feel because ultimately it is as you say in a "higher power's" control. You also hope that this higher power also has your best interest in mind and thus, nothing bad will happen.
I can understand why this idea of control in one sense or another is comforting. Facing the reality of the ultimate lack of choice and in the face of chaos causes real existential anxiety. I am not saying this at all to be malign you in any way. I can very much empathize and feel that many people can also at some point in their life. I am just commenting on how these anxieties can affect one's world paradigm and in turn, one's political belief.

You don't get it, do you? I don't control everything in my life--that's why I can cope. You see, I can't change the world--I know that. I don't try and change anything I cannot--i.e. people's attitudes, doctors who are asses, sick people who project their anger on me. I know my limits, boundaries. Things I cannot explain? I leave to a higher power--the universe, if you spiritualists would so prefer...

You are so wrong...hehe....nothing bad will happen? Hm...maybe you can explain why one of my bestest friends killed himself last week? Or why my post-knee patient died from an elective surgery? Nothing bad will happen? Are we in the same world? Bad things happen to good people; know that, been there, done that. The difference is that I can cope and not need medication. They call that a "good support system."

As a Gen-Xer I am very, very skeptical of things. I don't believe what is told to me, I need to see it for myself. As far as this health care reform, I need to read the bill, see the mandates. That's all. Not anti, not pro. I am in the middle. When I assisted with Operation Smiles, I gave of myself. Great thing to do. People with no money, no insurance, and the benefits were just unbelievable. Yeah, can you believe the private sector can give of itself? Wow. No government to enforce that. Wow.

Why would that be so wrong? Haha. You think you know how I think. Nope, sorry. wrong again. Keep going; Maybe you will get it right eventually.