NYS Board for Nursing New Resolution

The old tired BSN vs ADN debate rears its ugly head yet another time. Been going on for decades. Lately it has been fueled by that flawed "study" about BSN nurses supposedly being more "safe" than ADN's. Just another thing to divide us.

Here we go again......if they do this, I hope that they are not going to grandfather in us old dogs....and if they do, I hope that they are planning on giving me 100% funding to do this. Otherwise, this old dog will have to get out of the field. I make too much to get grants and scholarships and not enough to afford a student loan.

This is something that has been talked about for years......when they do it, I'll believe it.

So Glad my Dad made me get the degree

Whoa..I don't think that this post was ment to start the ADN vs. BSN war. I agree that it is a positive move for the cahnge to a required BSN, and it has nothing to do with anyone being a better nurse because of their level of education, it is simply due to the fact that our society places a high value on higher degrees. Also, New York has very strong unions and most hospitals in New York (at least in the city) offer excellent tuition reimbursement and many offer onsite RN-BSN programs as well as a 1000 or 1500 pay increase for a BSN. I think in order for a state to move in this direction it is neccessary to offer its workforce the tools and funds neccessary to implement theses changes.

About 3 years ago the majority of specialty certifications changed to require a BSN to first apply to take the exam. Non BSN's who were held certifications were Grandfathered.

Not once have I mentioned one degree being better than another, but to be honest the best Nurses are Diploma Grads.

Ok I am ready for the Boo's and Hisses. Diploma Nurses Ran rings around me when I graduated. I caught up a year or two after.

First, I graduated from Diploma program 31 years ago. Second, is this topic ever going to DIE??? If you eliminate, the guess-work and all the suppositions that accompany this obviously biased and "Better = More Education" proposition and reduce this argument down to where it belongs, the question becomes so easy to answer This whole discussion can be summed up with an easily qualifying statement, "We are all individuals, we all learn at different paces, we all are either motivated to become E.R. Nurses or NOT. I went to E.R. straight out of school, I obtained the qualifications to work in the field I love, and have loved since beginning my career, as I went along. Will that work for everyone? I doubt it. Will becoming a BSN, make you a better nurse?, in my opinion, NOT. Will the public have more confidence in a BSN nurse than they do in a Diploma nurse?, not as far as I've seen in my time span in this profession, we are characterized as "Hand-Maidens and Butlers, "servants" if you will allow me, by the majority of Family members, as well as the public in general. This attitude by patient's families has worsened over the years, probably due to TV shows more than anything else, they watch a few episodes of E.R. and Shazaam! they become Medical experts. I have managed to stay just outside this undercurrent, by mostly not responding to people who obviously do not know me, or any of the other nurses they pass judgement on daily. I have said this before and I will once again, because it is a true statement, "I personally know LPNs that are in very many ways better clinicians than quite a few R.N.s I've worked with and known. I know several R.N.s, that are better clinicians than some P.A.s, and I know some P.A.s that are better clinicians than the M.D.s they work for, so as you may see, I believe that catagorizing anyone by a few letters, is most definitely a flawed way of making any decisions about the skills of any profession. Happy New Year to all, and to all Good Night

:chair:

What do people think about the NY State Board for Nursing Resolution, passed December 7, 2003 to implement a requirement that future nurses with an Associate's Degree must earn a Bachelor's degree within 10 years of entering practice or be demoted to a Licensed Practical Nurse?

I am an LPN and feel that it is a major SLAM to our profession to be called being an LPN a demotion!! We work just as hard as RN's and I for one have no desire to go on for my RN. For what? A few dollars more per hour? To work nights, holidays and weekends? no thanks. I am happy being an LPN and don't think that all nurses want to go on to the next level. Some CNA's and Medical Assistants are happy being just that.

First, I graduated from Diploma program 31 years ago. Second, is this topic ever going to DIE??? If you eliminate, the guess-work and all the suppositions that accompany this obviously biased and "Better = More Education" proposition and reduce this argument down to where it belongs, the question becomes so easy to answer This whole discussion can be summed up with an easily qualifying statement, "We are all individuals, we all learn at different paces, we all are either motivated to become E.R. Nurses or NOT. I went to E.R. straight out of school, I obtained the qualifications to work in the field I love, and have loved since beginning my career, as I went along. Will that work for everyone? I doubt it. Will becoming a BSN, make you a better nurse?, in my opinion, NOT. Will the public have more confidence in a BSN nurse than they do in a Diploma nurse?, not as far as I've seen in my time span in this profession, we are characterized as "Hand-Maidens and Butlers, "servants" if you will allow me, by the majority of Family members, as well as the public in general. This attitude by patient's families has worsened over the years, probably due to TV shows more than anything else, they watch a few episodes of E.R. and Shazaam! they become Medical experts. I have managed to stay just outside this undercurrent, by mostly not responding to people who obviously do not know me, or any of the other nurses they pass judgement on daily. I have said this before and I will once again, because it is a true statement, "I personally know LPNs that are in very many ways better clinicians than quite a few R.N.s I've worked with and known. I know several R.N.s, that are better clinicians than some P.A.s, and I know some P.A.s that are better clinicians than the M.D.s they work for, so as you may see, I believe that catagorizing anyone by a few letters, is most definitely a flawed way of making any decisions about the skills of any profession. Happy New Year to all, and to all Good Night

:chair:

Well said!! i couldn't agree more. you're right on the money.

I have to agree with most of what Jay just said, and NO, this topic will never die! With the current nursing shortage not ever slated to end, I can't believe that "Nursing" educators/legislators or whatever continue to shoot themselves in the foot. I am one of those aging baby boomer nurses. At 51, I have already put in 31 years, and most likely have another 20! I graduated with an ADN and eventually got my BSN after many years of nursing. Did it make me a better clinician? No, but it widened my world view. Did it make me a better nurse? No, but it made a difference in how I felt about myself. I am glad I did it. But I emphatically say NO, NO, NO if they try to "demote" RN's who have been practicing for years on their license without problems. Make BSN an entry level if they want to, but grandfather the others in. There are plenty of reasons someone may not want to or may not be able to return to school for BSN. There are lots of great nurses working in rural areas of the country who would have to travel for hours to get to a school, spend countless dollars, hours etc. to obtain it. It may also be news to some, that everyone in this country does not have access to the internet! Should these nurses who have been serving in "backwoods" America be penalized because of the area they have chosen to live an practice? There are many single mothers who are struggling to survive in this world who are not able to return to school. Should they be penalized? What about those of my generation, the "sandwich" generation who are trying to help our children make it, yet are beginning to have to help with aging parents. Should we all be required to leave our families and get more education just so we can help someone elses?

I have known many LPN's who needed to get out of school as fast as possilble to begin to support their families. Many have returned to get their RN either AD or BSN at a later time. But in todays society, IF a BSN is a requirement, a lot of "older" workers will be discouraged from becoming nurses if they know it requires a 4 year degree. Many people come into nursing from other fields, especially in this time of downsizing of coorporations. We will lose valuable resources if we require everyone to have a BSN. We don't have enough nurses as it is already, do we want to continue this down hill spiral. Do these people really think by increasing the entry education level we are suddenly going to be respected by doctors, administrators and drunks??? I don't think so. The general population does not have any idea what our education consists of, nor do they care. They just want someone to answer their call bell when they ring it, clean them up when they need it, bring them pain med when they ask for it, and keep them fed. The only people this seems to matter to are nursing educators who are trying to justify their own existance because they are so far removed from bedside nursing.

The health care system in the US is already broken. Hospitals are closing their doors because they can't afford to stay open anymore. Trauma centers are closing because of the high costs of business with high risk, uninsured patients. Law suits are running rampant. We are all working short staffed and tired. We don't need anymore problems than we already have.

I think this BSN ADN debate is all about image. Apparently our politicians and the public believe they will receive better care from a BSN nurse than from a ADN nurse or a diploma educated nurse. This is laughable. First of all one must compare the courses that comprise most BSN and ADN programs. The nursing courses, "the meat and potatos" of the nursing education, are identical. For the BSN most programs generally require a statistics, a nutrition, maybe a slightly higher chemistry course, and perhaps some sociology. Then they throw in some liberal arts, and a "leadership" type course or two. That comprises most BSN programs. The "embelishments" don't provide a whole lot, if any, skill that can be used to improve patient care - that comes from work experience - period. If having a BSN degree is such a great qualification (earning 120-128 credits for that degree) what about nurses who have BA's or BS's and then go back and earn nursing degrees and end up with 150 -240 university credits? Wouldn't they be even more qualified to provide better, and "more rounded" nursing care to their patients? Maybe, maybe not. On the job, on the floor, experience will always be king. It doesn't matter if it's in nursing or any other profession. Perhaps a better way to assess the qualification of a nurse is to count how many hours or years they have been "on the job" - like pilots are assessed for how many hours they log in the air. The more fly time they log, the bigger planes (and more human cargo) they are responsible for. The "degree thing" in nursing, and in most professions, is a smoke and mirror act to calm the fears of customers/patients, yes they are our customers, who want the "degree holder" to provide a competent service for them. The degree is window dressing that provides hope that can't always be substantiated through actual performance. I've gone through the university route, and despite that, if I could mandate how nursing students are educated - or any health care professional, I would insist on a 3-4 year apprenticeship program- half a day in school, half a day at a hospital getting down and dirty in the trenches and earning a partial paycheck. That would be a good way to educate a new nurse, and expose him/her to the realities of their future profession. One would also end up with a new employee who would be more experienced and competent than the new graduates, both "2" and "4" year, that are being churned out today (with their 100-200 hours of "clinical experience":imbar ) This whole degree issue isn't grounded in reality. Reality in nursing, and any other profession, is based on experience and competency, not a piece of paper and an unproven expectation and an uncertain promise of future performance. Snoopd.

They are going to face lots of opposing "discussion" from other nursing organizations on this. Achieving their resolution could take years.

I live in NY, but work in MA as the pay is higher -much higher - like $6/hr more.

I can only see this exasorbating the nursing shortage here!

Chip