That spelled badly, contravesial thread about NA's...

World UK

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Hmmmm, thinking hat on now...

Factoids (being poorly contructed facts)

-Nursing = what nurses do = The provision of care

-Care requirements have difrent componencts (say IVI's and bed baths) both important care requirments but the backgroud education required to perform them is significantly difrent

-RN's are performing tasks that NA's do on many wards.

-The performace of NA's in some fascets of care is better than RN's can provide (partialy beacuse of time factors, partialy other reasons)

questioniod (questions I cant answer beacuse im not entirely sure what the question actualy is...)

-Why cant we accept that the invisable task (NA's) are nurses in their own right? Not trained with 3 years academdic knowledge and advanced skills.

But,

for lack of a better definition than the above one, 'nurses nurse', 'provide nursing care', 'we are nursing'

Therefore nurses (not RNs or NAa, but 'Nurses') are still providing nursing care, those core nursing activities that we vaunt so very much....

So why are we worried about the transmition of tasks to NA's?

Tribalism maybe.....

dont flame me, I dont think I even belive the above points but I'm just tring to bounce ideas around in my own head and though outside assisstance might help resolve the question....

Specializes in midwifery, ophthalmics, general practice.

I think there will always be good nurses and bad nurses- as a student we had staff nurses who never left the office. the key to good patient care ( and thats why we are here!) is team work. I work in a primary care team- there are about 30 of us at different levels and I value all the members of the team.

with regards task orientated nursing - well it can be argued that it delivers better health care- I seem to remember a research project suggesting that. will try and find it!

Karen

Originally posted by J. Tigana

I am a rgn and I worked as a healthcare assistant before and during my training. I can confirm that there are trained nurses out there who behave in the manner that Silvermoon has described. Ayemmeff perhaps if you did not take Silvermooon's commments personally you might be able to realise we would be able to provide better care if we all worked together. Also your comments could be interpreted as being insulting.

I actually found Silvermoon's comments rather devisive,which is why I responded with the post I did.

I was pointing out that there are lazy people, trained and untrained,which is true.Thankfully they are in the minority.

Possibly if both roles were better defined,(and there were more of all of us!)then teamwork would be improved.

I also said that I was glad that Silvermoon felt able to vent here,and I hope the next time I have the misfortune to work with a member of staff who isn't pulling their weight, I will be afforded the same opportunity.

I am sorry if my comments have been construed as insulting by some,as that certainly wasn't the intention.

I am an RMN, who trained originally as an RGN way back in the 80s. Back then, staff nurses didn't busy themselves with drug rounds and IVs and what have you to the detriment of basic nursing care. What has happened that RNs see themselves as "above" helping out with bed baths and catheter-emptying? I can't believe the wards have changed that much since 1989 (the last time I stepped onto a general ward), but maybe they have and I am wrong.

I am a G-grade, but my motto is if there's a job that needs doing, and you have the time and the capability to do it, then it is YOUR job, no-one else's. The best thing one of our E-grades said to me was "No job is beneath you, is it?"

I heard tell of a staff nurse in one of our wards who refused point-blank to clean up urine!! It's this "it's not my job" attitude that causes so much friction between different grades.

Ditto, Clive. Whatever happened to "You found it, you fix it!"

this type of mentality seems to be missing from alot of newly qualified staff. Surely it is also just common decency to refill something when you use the last one and not leave it for someone else to do. If you find the problem you should fix it not ignore and pass the buck.

Gaining the respect of fellow team members is very important the higher that you go up the ladder. You should lead by example and by following common curteousy you get a smoother running team.

I've certainly noticed a sort of syndrome among a certain kind of newly-qualified nurse that as soon as that RN appears next to their names, they seem to want nothing more to do with the nitty-gritty of nursing, preferring to hang out with the doctors and do o so important things like answering telephones and scribbling on pieces of paper and walking round, looking important and bossing more junior staff about.

We used to call it staffnurseitis, and it seems almost epidemic these days.

Specializes in Mostly LTC, some acute and some ER,.

Nothing gripes me more than a nurse saying "No I won't help you, that's a CNA's job." GRRRRRRRRRRRR. I should just say to her next time, "No, I won't help you, thats a nurses job!"

Originally posted by tony summers

this type of mentality seems to be missing from alot of newly qualified staff.

Not sure I agree with that necciccerily, in my, limited experiance from difrent trusts its less the new or old, but the ones who arnt happy in their jobs, either as nurses, in their proffesions or what ever, not the so called 'burnouts' beacuse their great still, they just seem to go about work with a tired and cynical gusto....

Maybe?

(by the way, now training in your trust :D )

Originally posted by tony summers

at the end of the day the trained members of staff need to be aware of everything that is happening in their areas because they are the ones whose head will roll if the s*** hits the fan.

It not tribalism that makes RN want the term nurse to be protected, it about demonstrating to the public that a nurse is someone who has achieved a certain standard and is capable of mataining that standard and if thing do go wrong their a recognisable body people their that will take the wrong doer to task. Whereas with the 'NAs' at the moment there is no such body and if they do something wrong they often only get slap on the wrist, (occassionally they will lose their job), whereas the RN might not only lose their job but their whole career.

Nursing is about caring for patients and having the guts to undertake a qualification that states that you not only will care for a patient but are prepared to take full professional responsiblity for that person whilst they are in your care. 'NAs' have no underataking, most are only to do their job and leave.

Yes, exactly!

Wow, I'm finding this thread so distressing.

I was a CNA for over 2 years, an LPN for 8 years and have been an RN for 3 years. I am in The US, not the UK.

I WISH I could do bed baths and personal care, things that some may consider "NA work". Those task are my favorite nursing tasks to do. I feel they do more for a pts feelings of well-being and comfort than most drugs or treatments could.

I really miss being able to do those things.

Paperwork is no fun. The amount of it is overwhelming. I do not consider paperwork to be nursing. And sitting around talking to docs? My goodness, most docs are so arrogent and abusive, I avoid them as much as I can!

When I was an NA, I worked agency. So, I worked w/ many different nurses in many different types of facilities.

Not once was I ever treated badly by a nurse. They were grateful for my help and we always worked together as a team!

Most nurses do not feel that they are "above" what could be considered "NA work". They just don't have time to do it! You can't say to an NA: "I'll clean up this BM, and take this other pt to the bathroom. Can you run and pass a few meds for me, and do some charting so I don't fall behind on that, because I'm busy doing this"?

I've never seen an NA have to stay over after shift to get paperwork done, NAs go home on time. But, nurses have to stay over (and forgo breaks) routinely.

Personally, I don't mind wiping butts, cleaning up urine, etc. Been doing it for years, no problem. I'd much rather clean up urine than do a bunch of time consuming, meaningless paper-work!

As for team-work, if you don't have it the pts and staff will suffer.

I have changed shifts and left jobs before just because terrible NAs. There is a problem (especially in LTC) with many NAs thinking they run the place, being overly aggressive, refusing to do what is asked of them, and being verbally abusive to nurses.

Whenever I have worked with an excellent NA, I am very appreciative and I show it, with frequent thanks, praise and little gifts I've bought for CNAs (nice pens, pins that say CNA, lunches, candy, etc).

Unfortunately (for me, not for them), when I've worked with a wonderful CNA, the arrangement doesn't last very long, as these CNAs usually go on to become nurses or leave the field altogether.

I have worked in a facility (inpt hospice) that was staffed with all nurses, no CNAs. This was done because of so many problems with aggressive, inappropriate CNAs who refused to do what was asked of them, lied and said they did pt care that they did not do, and were found sleeping in pt rooms, going outside to smoke constantly, etc.

Frankly, it was a big relief to be rid of them and pt care really improved.

When a CNA was finally hired, she was FANTASTIC, THE BEST. I wrote a letter in praise of her, asked all the nurses to sign it, and we got it printed in the company newsletter. We were so grateful for her, we just fawned all over her.

When I've had exceptional CNAs, other CNAs have sometimes treated them badly, and looked down on them. They were considered to be "kissing the nurse's a$$. This was not the case at all. They were working with me as a team, and it was wonderful!

And... as stated before, when I was a CNA, I did not consider myself to be a nurse, and I WAS NOT a nurse.

CNAs are not nurses, just as paralegals are not lawyers, security guards are not cops, and physician assistants are not doctors.

Originally posted by CliveUK

I am an RMN, who trained originally as an RGN way back in the 80s. Back then, staff nurses didn't busy themselves with drug rounds and IVs and what have you to the detriment of basic nursing care. What has happened that RNs see themselves as "above" helping out with bed baths and catheter-emptying? I can't believe the wards have changed that much since 1989 (the last time I stepped onto a general ward), but maybe they have and I am wrong.

Yes,I'm sorry, but you are!!!!I certainly don't "busy myself" with "drug rounds and IVs and what have you"....It's my job!!!!!! Who do you suggest I ask to do them? A domestic?

Apologies to whoever said I took things personally,bloody tough, thats me,and I do!

Wish I could be as eloquent as HellllloNurse,some of these posts have enfuriated and disgusted me.

Teamwork? Not with RN's being resented for doing their job!!!

Erm - ayemmeff, please remove yourself from my throat.

What I actually said was that the staff nurses I worked with didn't busy themselves with drug rounds and IVs to the detriment of 'basic nursing care'. By which I meant they did the 'basics' AND the drug rounds and IVs and yadda yadda. What I was suggesting was that perhaps SOME RNs busy themselves with these things because SOME RNs think 'basic care' is beneath them.

Please note the use of the word SOME before you leap down my throat again.

Talk about defensive!

We should value everyone's contribution to health care - from the consultant surgeon to the domestic to the NA to the RN etc. etc.

I find this whole thread very saddening. Just shows we have a hell of a looooong way to go.

Here is a poem I found on another site a long time ago. I saved it because it addresses so well the problems between nurse, aides, etc.

Rebadee, who originally posted this poem on the AOL LPN message board, says, "The original, that was about black not liking white and vice versa, and rich not liking poor, one religion not liking another etc., was an old poem from the early 60s, I believe, and the author was 'unknown'. I changed it up to fit the nursing arguments that have been appearing on the boards. I can't take credit for the overall theme of the poem."

*SEVEN NURSES*

contributed by Rebadee

Seven nurses trapped by happenstance

In the dark and bitter cold.

Each one possessed a stick of wood,

Or so the story's told.

Their dying fire in need of logs,

The first nurse held hers tight.

For on the faces around the fire,

Was "that's a nurse who works at night. "

The night nurse looking cross the way,

Saw one not of her shift,

And wouldn't give her stick of wood

To give the fire a lift.

The third nurse noticed in the group

One that wanted to unionize,

"Why should I use my stick of wood

To warm someone I despise?"

The management nurse sat in deep thought,

(Her mind not on the fire)

Of ways to stretch this small staff

Without having to hire.

The floor nurse's face bespoke revenge

as the fire passed from sight,

For all she saw in her stick of wood

Was a chance for spite tonight.

The nurse with the BSN sat and watched

As the fire began to dim.

"My degree is more important than his

I'll put mine in after him."

The last nurse of this forlorn group

Did naught except for gain

Giving only to those who gave

Was how he played the game.

The logs held tight in death's still hands

Was proof of how we sin.

They didn't die from the cold without,

They died from--THE COLD WITHIN.

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