Nursing Diagnosis...the sacred cow that needs to go.

Nurses General Nursing

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i've been an adn for 16 years. recently, i finished my bsn and now am through my first year of a dnp program. like most students, i struggled with learning to understand a nursing diagnosis during my adn schooling. since that time the term has cropped up in various situations but usually as a passing comment. it has in no way benefitted my practice as a nurse. in fact, when i bring up the subject with colleagues i often get a smirk or an eye-roll!

the subject of nursing diagnoses happened to come up in one of my grad school classes the other day. i decided to take a stab at this sacred cow and suggest that maybe they are burdensome and irrelevant to a working nurse that they simply aren't utilized. my professor's response was a textbook explanation that i've only heard repeated on a college campus. "if you say your patient has pneumonia, you are using a medical diagnosis which is outside your scope of nursing practice. you must have a nursing diagnosis to be able to implement and evaluate your interventions." i may be wrong, but i'm pretty sure i've been able to implement and evaluate my nursing interventions without needing a nursing diagnosis.

personally, i believe the idea for a nursing diagnosis comes from the ongoing and hard-won independence from the thumb of the medical community. i am all for the continued growth of nursing science. however, on this point we overshot the mark. there is simply no justifiable rationale for calling pneumonia something like

"impaired gas exchange related to effects of alveolar-capillary membrane changes. or

ineffective airway clearance related to effects of infection, excessive tracheobronchial secretions, fatigue and decreased energy, chest discomfort and muscle weakness. "

why not just say the patient has pneumonia? because it a medical diagnosis and we don't practice medicine? baloney! its a pathologic condition. call it what it is. we dont need to reinvent the wheel.

why do we hang on to this? we need to eject it from nursing and maybe realize we don't use it like we thought we would. a lot of time and energy is wasted on this topic in nursing programs that could be better spent elsewhere.

what say you?

Specializes in M/S, Travel Nursing, Pulmonary.
Erik-I am a Pirates fan as well. So sad...but at least we have THE STEELERS!!!

I actually don't like the Steelers much. Denver Broncos fan here. Have been since I was a kid, didn't change my mind about it when we moved here to PA.

Specializes in M/S, Travel Nursing, Pulmonary.
You? Me? 10 other nurses and a Foley ----? You forgot??? :bluecry1::bluecry1::bluecry1: sigghhh . .C'est l'amour. . .anyway ---

eriksoln on Jun 23, 2011, 12:04 AM

Anyone who would fail to grasp this simple explanation as opposed to assuming your username of eriksoln means your name is Erik obviously can't cirtical think their way out of a paper bag (or a Ziploc bag). And I thought it was a play on Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs so there. :)

now back to the topic - apologies for ability to stay on topic, impaired.

for anyone who may be thinking this makes no sense it's just some thread crossover from:

https://allnurses.com/general-nursing-discussion/ok-one-hasnt-582477.html

and

https://allnurses.com/general-nursing-discussion/using-my-nursing-566705.html

Ewww, that way below the belt, posting that vacation thread. Besides, it wasn't even me, it was my niece playing games on the computer and being silly. Thats my story, I'm sticking to it.

BTW........what does C'est l'amour mean? Is that Spanish?

And since you are my first and only stalker, EVER, I want to know. Do you stalkers have nicknames like Cereal Killers do? What's yours?

Specializes in Peds/outpatient FP,derm,allergy/private duty.
Ewww, that way below the belt, posting that vacation thread. Besides, it wasn't even me, it was my niece playing games on the computer and being silly. Thats my story, I'm sticking to it.

BTW........what does C'est l'amour mean? Is that Spanish?

And since you are my first and only stalker, EVER, I want to know. Do you stalkers have nicknames like Cereal Killers do? What's yours?

Don't worry. Nobody will click on that link. People never do. I only put it in there to save people the trouble of posting too many of :confused:

Did you know that Dennis Rader (BTK killer) used cereal boxes as a prop to taunt the police and ---- I don't know maybe he thought his clever devices could secure him an invite to the next Law Enforcement Family Picnic? Who knows? He did give the impression he felt he and the cops could be good buds if it wasn't for his unusual hobby.

On to nicknames! I get to pick my own? :w00t: That's cool because it is usually the media and the homicide task force that get to name a criminal, and normally they come up with something so cheesy or lame you want to cringe so I will have to give that some thought. Going to head over to http://www.urbandictionary.com/ to get some ideas. Links!

Specializes in M/S, Travel Nursing, Pulmonary.
Don't worry. Nobody will click on that link. People never do. I only put it in there to save people the trouble of posting too many of :confused:

Did you know that Dennis Rader (BTK killer) used cereal boxes as a prop to taunt the police and ---- I don't know maybe he thought his clever devices could secure him an invite to the next Law Enforcement Family Picnic? Who knows? He did give the impression he felt he and the cops could be good buds if it wasn't for his unusual hobby.

On to nicknames! I get to pick my own? :w00t: That's cool because it is usually the media and the homicide task force that get to name a criminal, and normally they come up with something so cheesy or lame you want to cringe so I will have to give that some thought. Going to head over to http://www.urbandictionary.com/ to get some ideas. Links!

Oh, I didn't think of that. I could choose it too. You should post your five favorite choices and let people vote.

Mmmmmmm...........lets see:

Fluffy56

GeekTrapper

IdiotSlaughterer

MoonLightBayScalper

Do-That-Voodoo-U-Do

Motley/Crew/Groopie/Gone/Bad

StalkerSpice

Idaho-No-U-Da-Ho

Santa'sSecretVigilante

Specializes in Critical Care.
Again, I usually say what I mean. Never said that they were removed, just said that most medical interventions are at the secondary prevention level especially when it comes to screening. Screening tests are done to evaluate potential or obvious signs of disease. Screening does not prevent the disease, it tests for it. Education, immunizations, higher environmental standards, adequate food, shelter, clothing, and water prevent the disease, hence primary.

What 'nursing school definition?' I don't make stuff up when teaching nursing students. It is a Community/Public Health Definition. You can read about it when you read the PM I sent you. Leavell and Clark (1958) and community health primary prevention. This is the original model which has been updated over the years. It is the accepted definition of prevention in community health (not just community nursing).

I will address your points, however.

1. This isn’t a Cleveland Clinic website, it is a US News and Health article talking about the Cleveland Clinic so I don't see it as reliable. But I am unsure of where you are seeing lipid panel as primary prevention.

They say "Prevention" has two meanings when dealing with coronary artery disease. Primary prevention aims at preventing heart and blood vessel disease in individuals who haven't had a heart attack or symptoms of coronary artery disease and have no known clinical evidence of CAD. Secondary prevention is aimed at individuals with known CAD.

The single most essential element in primary prevention centers on a set of measures collectively termed therapeutic lifestyle changes …research shows that making even the smallest lifestyle changes can reduce the risk of coronary artery disease, heart attack, stroke, and other serious cardiovascular conditions.

I just emailed Kate Nagel, MPH the director of the Department of Public Health and

Research (PHR) at the Cleveland Clinic. Met her at a speech she gave and I asked her to further clarify the article.

2. This information is from 1989 and it doesn’t even list an author or a medical journal that it is from. Anyone could have written or maybe I am not able to see as much in my view as you did yours. I was trying to get a medical and or public health definition. Sure, anyone can use 'primary prevention' interchangeably with secondary if they don't refer to the proper definitions. Words are interchanged in health care all the time; ie: RN's and LPNs, PA's and NP's, but there are differences.

"Clinicians should emphasize the primary prevention of

…….Secondary prevention of CAD (screening) by performing..."

3. http://www2.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab001561.html

This website is talking about reducing risk factors by intervening.

“In many countries, there is enthusiasm for 'healthy heart programmes' that use counselling and educational methods to encourage people to reduce their risks for developing heart disease. These risk factors include high cholesterol, excessive salt intake, high blood pressure, excess weight, a high-fat diet, smoking, diabetes and a sedentary lifestyle.”

Again, maybe I am not seeing something here but it does not talk about lipid panels, it is a study to determine how to reduce risk factors.

4. http://www.americanheart.org/present...identifier=470

I couldn’t open this one.

When we do screenings for CAD risk factors (for the purpose of preventing CAD), we do a lipid panel, take BP, do an A1C (some just take a 1-time BG reading), etc.

Example: http://www.lifelinescreening.com/health-screening-services/heart-disease.aspx

If we run those tests for the purpose of risk factor screening on a person without known CAD then it's primary prevention, if they have known CAD then it's secondary prevention. The assessment of and management of risk factors is the same whether or not you already have CAD which is why Primary and Secondary prevention are essentially the same, only the presence of CAD in the patient determines Primary vs Secondary. If a lipid panel is being done to assess for CAD risk factors in a patient without known CAD would that make it Secondary Prevention?

It seems like you may be altering the definitions to fit your earlier assertion that Physcians don't prevent disease, so if it's something ordered by an MD, such as cholesterol check, then it must not be primary prevention.

Another link to the AHA primary prevention guidelines.

http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/107/11/1562/TBL3

Specializes in Critical Care.

I think the main issue I have with the NANDA philosophy is that it is not so much pro-Nursing as it is anti-"Medicine" (Physician Medicine). There seems to be correlation between how pro-NANDA some one is and how anti-Physician Medicine someone is. It is definitely true that we do more than just participate in the planning, implementation, and evaluation of the "Medicine" careplan, but NANDA seems intent to completely divorce ourselves of that involvement.

We really don't need an alternative to do away with NANDA, there are much better ways to care plan without NANDA and with any sort of official replacement. The coare planning system we use where I work, which is used for both inpatients as well as outpatient "well-patient" care, is actually quite useful rather than being a nuisance, yet there's not a whiff of NANDA in it.

Specializes in Peds/outpatient FP,derm,allergy/private duty.
oh, i didn't think of that. i could choose it too. you should post your five favorite choices and let people vote.

mmmmmmm...........lets see:

fluffy56

gonna have to go with that one. no vote though. fluffy is a dictator. look at that eye if you dare.

remember, no matter what "bad thing" happens, fluffy did it.

Specializes in Geriatrics, Dialysis.
Gonna have to go with that one. No vote though. Fluffy is a dictator. Look at that eye if you dare.

Remember, no matter what "bad thing" happens, Fluffy did it.

I gotta vote for "Idaho-No-U-Da-Ho" Possibly the best dirty sounding use of a state name ever. Sorry in advance for any of you that live in the great state of Idaho. I've been through there many times and especially like Coeur D'Alene.

Specializes in Peds/outpatient FP,derm,allergy/private duty.
I gotta vote for "Idaho-No-U-Da-Ho" Possibly the best dirty sounding use of a state name ever. Sorry in advance for any of you that live in the great state of Idaho. I've been through there many times and especially like Coeur D'Alene.

Both you and thatentityformerlyknownaserik are vocabulariously facile! Whereas with myself, most wordplay zips right over my head and it took me 5 years to realize that Jill Ireland's book about breast CA called "Lifewish" was a take from her husband's "Deathwish" movies. :idea: When I announce my new insight I normally get "uh, yeeahhh.. :uhoh21:".

So I'll reconsider some of them. . .

GeekTrapper -are you saying you're a geek? What I really need is a Geek Trapper-Keeper-- it's tough keeping all those surveillance photos and disturbing poems organized for the busy stalker on-the-go. They are also handy for storing your care plans!!

MoonLightBayScalper - I'm a seventies girl we love long hair.so nooo . . .although my idols Joni Mitchell, Joan Baez and Grace Slick have since gone all sorta like my mom wore hers ... :/

Motley/Crew/Groopie/Gone/Bad ----great! oh wait, who??? (see above)

StalkerSpice --- this, too

Idaho-No-U-Da-Ho - definitely first runner up so if for any reason Fluffy56 is unable to fulfill her duties etc blah blah blah but yes we do need to keep in mind Idaho is drop-dead beautiful and free of rampant vices. Most likely because the people are compliant and follow their care plans.

Specializes in M/S, Travel Nursing, Pulmonary.
Gonna have to go with that one. No vote though. Fluffy is a dictator. Look at that eye if you dare.

Remember, no matter what "bad thing" happens, Fluffy did it.

Dang. Totally backfired on me. I put that one in there as a joke thinking you'd nix it the second you were done reading it.

My fav. was the santa one. Ah well, to each his own.

Specializes in cardiac, ICU, education.

Hey Eriksoln,

Sorry for the late response, but I was on vaca and I finally have my computer back. Anyway, don't worry about the community health definitions, community health is usually in the BSN programs which you will be heavily involved in shortly :).

The questions about primary prevention vs. secondary prevention (not primary care) are detailed in a great website below. Enjoy and feel free to pm me with any community health questions, too bad you couldn't take my class online!!!

http://www.libraryindex.com/pages/50/Prevention-Disease.html

I cringe anytime a parent asks me 'What do you think my child has".....They think if you don't tell them that you dont know what you should know to do your job..

Yet they dont like to hear "It is not within my scope of practice to even offer a guess, as nurses cannot dx or offer medical opinions'

I tend to simply deflect..."well I am concerned that his pulse ox is not at his typical range and his heart rate is elevated with lots of secretions tonight. Lets see what the doctor has to say but in the meantime we can give him his ordered neb tx's"

I wonder am I the only one that is that cautious or would many nurses have simply said.."seems like he might be getting a respiratory infection but we'll see what the dr' says"

Could you imagine telling them or a Dr. that you have found 'ineffective airway clearance related to A B and C, as evidenced by D. Haha!!

GO PHILLIES!!!!!!!!!

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