Universal coverage for pregnant women and children = 9 days of DOD spending - page 8
but even if schip is fully funded, millions of children will still be excluded from health care coverage. up until now, medicaid and the schip program have made great strides in providing children... Read More
Mar 9, '07"t's cheaper to pay for a box of condoms and a diaphragm than prenatal care. We need to put more funding into interconceptional coverage and family planning services for both men and women." -horvie
That is absolutely true. Unfortunately, many young women don't know how to get or use contraception. For example, a woman in her twenties recently told me she believes that "pulling out" is the most effective birth control method. There is wide spread ignorance about contraception in this country, thanks in part to abstinence-only sex education in many of our schools. If we made a practice of teaching all public school students what they need to know about contraception and made various methods easily available to everyone regardless of age or income, we would be doing a lot to prevent unintended pregnancies.
Mar 9, '07I agree with those that state that personal responsibility is key here. I believe the biggest objection to universal healthcare comes with the perception of hard-working people having to pay for people who'd rather live off the state than work for their own lives.
I'm not referring to folks who DO work hard but don't have insurance. We need to find a way to make insurance affordable for working class families.
BUT - I do have an objection to saving everyone who wants a prescription for Tylenol so they don't have to pay for it over the counter (while keeping their newly-done nails in great condition). I do have an objection to seeing someone get disability because they've been noncompliant all their lives (when someone who has worked all their lives has to literally SUE to get legit disability).
I have a real problem with folks who'll use the ER instead of a sliding-scale clinic because they simply believe they shouldn't HAVE to pay anything. By that token, I shouldn't HAVE to work for anything I have, should I? Someone else should just give it to me!
I am against free-for-all everything for those who are not willing to work to provide for themselves (as opposed to those who TRULY cannot), I am opposed to free healthcare and education for illegal aliens who are breaking our laws, and I am FOR our citizens ALL sharing responsibility for their health and wellbeing. Right now, it sure seems that folks think the only ones how have to have social responsiblity are the ones who WORK.
As an aside - I DO think children should be taken care of and not punished for having idiot parents and I think that folks who can't afford to have kids should figure out how that's happening (it ain't the water, sweetie) and not have 8 kids on my dime.
Until we as a nation put out the expectation that people ARE responsible for thier decisions and their lives, folks will continue to expect to be taken care of, with no consequences to themselves. That's a problem.
Mar 9, '07[QUOTE=Kyrshamarks;2103787]Quote from spacenurseHere many ICU and medical/surgical patients are held in the ER for hours to days. I guess that is not happening in houston. I am glad.We cannot continue on the road we are on now. Hospitals are closing, many are closing ER's and mental health services. [/q]
Where are the hospitals closing left and right? where are the ER's closing left and right? Obviously not here in Houston. There are hospitals opening every month and there are ER's every where as wel as urgent care centers for minor problems. I have not seen reports of hospitals closing all over the ones I have seen were marginal at best and more than likely needed to be closed. Just becasue it is a hospital does not make it a scared place.
TOO FEW HOSPITAL BEDS
Mentally ill-and locked out
40 mental health hospitals have closed in the past decade
Closed California Hospitals
1996 to Present as of September 2006
Rural Hospital Closures:
Emergency room closures causing health care crisis
Nationwide 500 hospitals closed in 10 years. 1,128 ERs closed from 1988-1998 and it continues.
ER closures place patient care in jeopardy:
How far to the next hospital?
Boston, Cleveland, and...
Jails forced to serve mentally ill after hospital closures
I agree that health education including facts about birth control should be taught to teens. I don't believe education causes sexual activity.
I also think it is normal for married couples to have sex. That does not always have to result in a child.
After we were married 11 months I became pregnant. A major hospital had a program where we paid a down payment and at every prenatal visit until the
7th month. Then the three day hospitalization for mother and infant was paid for. Sort of an insurance policy because if something had been wrong it would have been covered.
Mar 9, '07Quote from EmerNurseI hesitate to tell my own personal experience with no health insurance, but it is fitting here.I worked for 27 years as an LPN in LTC. I raised 4 children on my own after being divorced when my youngest was 7 years old. I could not afford to go back to school and I did work full time, so I did not persue my RN.I helped put all 4 of my children through college and am proud to say thay are all successful, responsible adults.I could no longer work as an LPN in 2005 when my DDD, DJD became so severe I could not get through a shift without massive back and leg spasms.Severe DJD in R knee, need replacement surgery. I also am blind in one eye and now have starting cataract in good eye, I was recently diagnosed with inflammatory arthritis in bilateral hands, right hand has moderate damage, just within the last year.I am one of those folks who have had to hire an attorney to FIGHT for Social Security Disability. I never asked for a dime from any one until I could no longer support myself.I have bankrupt my savings and am living off the charity of my four children until I get an approval from SSDI.It has been a year and a half of waiting.I go to a free clinic that is great but because of cost constraints cannot provide the services a of a rheumatalogist for my hands. I am NOT eligible for Medicaid in the state of Wisconsin, until I am proven disabled, and so far that has taken 1 1/2 years and I dont even have a court date yet. I dont expect sympathy, I hope that my situation can provide a better understanding of the NEED for Health care REFORM. Medicaid and other entitlement programs as well as private health care need expansive reforms, people that have been responsible HARD WORKERS all their lives are suffering, not just the "users, slackers, etc, etc."BUT - I do have an objection to saving everyone who wants a prescription for Tylenol so they don't have to pay for it over the counter (while keeping their newly-done nails in great condition). I do have an objection to seeing someone get disability because they've been noncompliant all their lives (when someone who has worked all their lives has to literally SUE to get legit disability).
Right now, it sure seems that folks think the only ones how have to have social responsiblity are the ones who WORK.
Last edit by Simplepleasures on Mar 9, '07
Mar 9, '07Let's not confuse a "right" with a "need." Food, water, shelter, and maybe healthcare; those are needs. A "right" is a moral good, as defined by a human. I don't think anyone has the "right" to my property. But, I may feel the morally obligation to help others. So, long as it doesn't impinge on my rights.
"Observe that all legitimate rights have one thing in common: they are rights to action, not to rewards from other people. The American rights impose no obligation on other people... The system guarantees you the chance to work for what you want-- not to be given it without effort by someone else." http://www.bdt.com/pages/Peikoff.html
Mar 9, '07I would like to see universal coverage. But we also need to make people more responsible like say making people who have unhealthy life styles pay higher copays or if they use ER inappropriatly time and time again their ER copay should go up. If you are a bad driver you pay more for car insurance right. Now I'm not suggesting people who have health problems pay more but those who abuse the system and their bodies should. I've also been reading the argument that we shouldn't be providing health care because then we'll be paying for people who don't work. hello thats what we're doing now anyone who doesn't work or is illegal walks in an ER gets care and never pays for it. It's the working people who can't get healthcare. There are many more employers who just aren't offering it anymore.
Mar 9, '07Quote from ~jellybean~:yeahthat: :yeahthat: :yeahthat:Anyone can find themselves without health insurance due to unfortunate circumstances that may be completely beyond their control. That realization is part of the reason I feel compassion for those without insurance. I have also lived without insurance and know how difficult it is, and I have family members who are experiencing that problem now.
1 in 5 Americans do not have any health coverage. I do not believe it is because 1 in 5 Americans are lazy moochers. There are many options to fix this problem, each with their own pros and cons. I don't think ignoring the problem or blaming it on the victims is the way to go.
Mar 9, '07Quote from sumoeBecause the children did no wrong, they did not ask to be born. What would you suggest we do with them?Why is everyone else responsible for the children of the irresponsible?
Mar 10, '07Quote from ingeleinGive them the OPPORTUNITY to excel without becoming future slaves to irresponsible people like their parents.Because the children did no wrong, they did not ask to be born. What would you suggest we do with them?
Everybody here, probably, would detest slavery. But, that is EXACTLY what is being advocated here. When you command my labor for the fruits of others, by threat of the full power and coercive mechanisms of gov't, you are, in effect, advocating a form of slavery.
The whole concept of ownership of property stands against the concept of slavery. It's not enough to be able to own 'yourself' if you cannot likewise own the fruits of your work.
The key phrase oft bantered about is the 'common good'. When the gov't takes that concept and applies it, not to providing services that benefit us all equally, such as roads or defense, but expands that concept to taking from some to provide services for others, the result is slavery.
I detest the concept of universal healthcare because I believe the concept of slavery to be repugnant, MORE repugnant than the potential benefits that could result from coerced labor.
But, you say, how on earth will we be able to feed everybody if slaves aren't harvesting our crops? It's for the 'common good', afterall. Right? Who could be against feeding little children?
You might point out that experience has now proven that food can be provided for the masses by means that do NOT include slavery. Exactly so. That's MY point.
Just because the taskmaster raids your paycheck at the threat of jail instead of a whip across the back in order to get the fruits of YOUR labor does NOT make it essentially more humane.
There ARE better ways to create access to healthcare without resulting to slavery. In any case, I can think of no WORSE ways.
Timothy.Last edit by ZASHAGALKA on Mar 10, '07
Mar 10, '07Quote from zashagalkai know that there are folks out there that dont agree with universal healthcare, but to say that this will turn us into slaves is an insult to the real slaves of america's past.give them the opportunity to excel without becoming future slaves to irresponsible people like their parents.wouldnt that be giving them something? it might mean a social entitlement program.
i detest the concept of universal healthcare because i believe the concept of slavery to be repugnant, more repugnant than the potential benefits that could result from coerced labor. slaves in norway, sweden , canada, germany, england,australia.do you think they see themselves as slaves?
but, you say,(you said that, not me.) how on earth will we be able to feed everybody if slaves aren't harvesting our crops? it's for the 'common good', afterall. right? who could be against feeding little children? whoa, this is really streching.
timothy.Last edit by Simplepleasures on Mar 10, '07
Mar 10, '07Quote from ingeleinNot at all. It's EQUALLY offensive and insulting to command the fruits of THEIR labor for the benefit of others as it is to command the fruits of MY labor for the benefits of others - both at the threat of coercion.I know that there are folks out there that dont agree with Universal healthcare, but to say that this will turn us into SLAVES is an insult to the REAL slaves of America's past.
There might be a huge difference in coercive tactics, but there is absolutely NO difference in the moral case for such action. In BOTH cases, the intended coercion of "service" is repugnant.
Please explain the moral difference. Perhaps you wish to argue that if the gov't proposes to take only 40% of my income, then that makes me only 40% a slave, thereby being a morally superior argument than making me 100% a slave. But, in making THAT argument, you would be making a moral case FOR slavery, with your only objection being the quantity of it. In effect, slavery is GOOD, in moderation.
"But, you say, how on earth will we be able to feed everybody if slaves aren't harvesting our crops? It's for the 'common good', afterall. Right? Who could be against feeding little children? Whoa, this is really streching."
That's not stretching at all. In fact, that is EXACTLY the case made 150 yrs ago for the necessity of continuing slavery. It's a 'necessary evil' to ensure access to crops for everyone. Otherwise, 'little children' back in the great Northeast will starve.
I intend to use coercive efforts to compel you to provide the benefit of your labor for the use of others. That is a definition that applies to universal healthcare as equally as it does to slavery. If you disagree, point out the difference.
Timothy.Last edit by ZASHAGALKA on Mar 10, '07
Mar 10, '07Quote from ingeleinThere are millions of families in America who provide for there children. There unfortunately are those who do not. For those children, there already are programs.Because the children did no wrong, they did not ask to be born. What would you suggest we do with them?
For the most part, kids are healthy. There are however sick kids and families who are finacially challenged because of their child's health. These are sad cases, but it makes more sense to reform the current system to make health care/ health insurance more affordable.
It doesn't take a village to raise a child. It takes a family.