Is Health Care a Right? - page 20
Just want to see your opinion (friendly discussion, no flaming, please). Is health care a right that should be enjoyed equally here in the U.S.? If so, how would this be financed without breaking... Read More
Jan 29, '03I don't think people are saying lifestyle choices don't affect health, just that this is not unique to the US. We have plenty of fat, smoking, drug addicted, pregnant teenagers as well unfortunately (though most aren't all of the above). The nice thing here is that they don't have a choice as to whether or not they will contribute to their health care costs. If you make money you have to pay for healthcare.
Jan 29, '03So, let's see.... health care is a 'right.'
Okay. Let's pick some random Joe walking down the street, (preferrably one wearing a nice wool coat carrying a leather briefcase), hold a gun to his head and DEMAND that he fund the health care of the girl up the block. After all, she has the 'right' to health care, and he has some spare cash in his pocket.
Never mind that he may want to send his kids to private school, or buy a new car, or save for retirement, or take a skiing trip this weekend. He MUST pay for the girl up the block, because SHE has the right to health care, and he has NO RIGHT to decide what to do with his own hard-earned cash.
I realize this may seem brutal, and a bit over-simplified, but boiled down it's the way it is. If we start deciding that people have the 'right' to certain things, then SOMEBODY has to pay for it. Remember, the government doesn't have ANY money of its own...it's all taxes, which are taken by force (government 'guns' or the threat of imprisonment.) Also, we hand over our own right to decide how best to use our own resources.
And as far as 'access' to health care is concerned, most hospitals nowadays are FORCED to treat people regardless of ability to pay. Not necessarily a bad thing, but the option is there. I realize this jacks up the total cost of care, but until other areas of the health care system (like 'entitlements') are cleaned up, that's the way it is. There are also charities that fund health care... to which a lot more people would be able to donate if they weren't taxed so heavily.
I'd better stop now....
Jan 29, '03I think it's a matter of priorities, OURS in the way of preserving good health and teaching good habits to our patients, and of our gov't...I mean like said above, if we are willing to spend BILLIONS of $$$ on a war on terror and maybe IRAQ (whether you agree w/it or not), it seems we would do better in the way of investment in the health of all our citizens, esp those that cannot help themselves. It is really about priorities ...the money is there, just do we want to spend it accordingly??? Just my less then 0.2 on this one. I have no answers here. Just more questions to ponder.
Jan 29, '03Originally posted by JMP
If you take the time to read the report, lifestyle is not a factor.
What is a factor is availability, fairness, ACCESS. Everyone, regardless of their age, INCOME, level of education, etc SHOULD ( and by the way, here they ALL DO) have access to health care. There simply is no good excuse that Americans do not. It should be a right of all people.
Yes, so should the right to own a car (after all, you cannot get to work in many places if you don't have a car!). Lets just pay for that one too. WTH, its only my paycheck you tax.
Your health care system will not improve until it is stopped being managed like a business and run with fair and equal access.
its run like a business because our economy works on incentives. I.E. You work harder, you keep more, or are able to live better. We are allowed to chose our hospitals, doctors, and to a large degree, the treatments we can get. We are a representative republic, type of democracy, NOT an empire, or socialist union. We do have equal access, if you can pay. That does not mean everyone is just given everything. I cannot afford to drive a Ford Expedition, but if I made enough, I could. My incentive? work harder.
I remember when I was in the States, thinking about moving there, I was in the back of a cab with a young woman in her early thirties who was driving the cab. She had diabetes, born with it, COULD NOT GET health insurance and lived in fear every day that she would get sick and had no way to pay for it.
Right there and then, I decided not to move there. I just simply could not justify in my mind, working in a health care system that was so unjust.
Uhuh. Well, OUR loss, I'm sure
But since you are not affected by it, do not work under or in it, and have no real stake, then how about NOT trying to be so heavy on your criticism, since you evidently don't have a very good understanding of our system. If you get your news from what the World Health Organization spews, well, it doesn't speak well of your choice of resources, since their credibility rates somewhere around that of CNN, Time Magazine, and the Weekly World News (a trash rag).
I'm sure Canada isn't the end-all and be-all of healthcare, yet do the United States Healthcare profs. spend their time bashing it? No, we just don't lose any sleep over your problems.
I spent 6 yrs in Spain, and I must say, I don't put much stock in the statement that the US Healthcare is dead last, either.Last edit by Gromit on Jan 29, '03
Jan 29, '03Originally posted by Sally_ICURN
aren't you listening to your all so great "Republican" leader right now? He's saying a whole lot of stuff that YOU would probably completely disagree with.
He is great though.
Jan 29, '03here's a post from last year[sigh-the elections], looks to me like a reason to have the well being of others as a part of self interest.
INCOME INEQUALITY AS PREDICTOR OF HEALTH
I read recently of public health studies, done independently by Stanford and Harvard medical schools, which demonstrated a correlation between income inequality and health. In comparing data across the 50 states, in states with the greatest gap between the richest and poorest there were higher rates of morbidity and mortality. Now before you think, so what's new about that..the study indicated IT WAS NOT ONLY THE POOR in these states who were getting sick and dying; the risk extended across all income groups. The rates of crime, incarceration and unemployment were also correlated to income inequality, as were higher medical costs and higher police costs.
In the United states where wealth disparity is growing faster than even the income gap, 0.01% gained 90% of the 1990's goodies.
Wealth disparity can be a threat to public health, and the health of you and your families. Alarmist? You betcha!
By the way TB in my county is at its highest rates in 30 years; homlessness[and overcrowding in the shelters], poor nutrition and lack of access to health care are considered factors in the increased incidence. This problem will no doubt be solved when we start aiming our Cruise missiles.
Jan 29, '03But since you are not affected by it, do not work under or in it, and have no real stake, then how about NOT trying to offer your fixes, since you evidently don't have a very good understanding of our system.
Uhuh. Well, OUR loss, I'm sure
Jan 29, '03Wow Maureeno, has it been a year already?
Now that article I can agree with. Sure, TB and other public health concerns rise when there is increased homelessness and overcrowding of shelters. I think we can all agree on that. But building homes for the homeless to prevent the spread of TB to me and my family is not really the answer either. Why not? Well to start with, when would it stop? Part of the transmission of TB and other communicable disease also have alot to due to with handwashing and other hygienic practices that were not utilized in our early colonial period - so even when the earning gap was less, we actually had more incidence of such diseases.
There is absolutely NO way that we can house every homeless person, simply because we can't and shouldn't control every American's spending habits, personal habits and life choices. So, when someone ends up homeless, we build them a house to protect our own azz from getting "infected" from them? In all reality, that solution sounds more elitist than anything I've ever heard any Republican say.
Jan 29, '03Originally posted by Sally_ICURN
So are you saying that Mr. Bush is the all-knowing? What he says MUST be right? Let me make a note of that.
And people wonder why so many arguments abound! Try putting more words in his mouth!
Jan 29, '03Originally posted by Sally_ICURN
And this country wonders why we are seen as arrogant by a large portion of the world? Hmm.
And quite honestly, I don't care a whole lot about HOW the rest of the world views us. Arrogant? Perhaps. But then so much of the world looks at us with hatred (or envy turned to hatred-whatever) that I can't really be bothered with trying to please 'em all.
I never claimed ours to be the best, but its not the worst, either. For someone in Canada to browbeat our system, when their OWN is hardly w/o flaws, well, I ask you, isnt THAT arrogance?
Jan 29, '03This thread has turned trashy. Here we've got professional NURSES talking complete smack about a portion of our population who cannot afford health insurance. That portion accounts for 14% of the total population...that's 41 MILLION UNINSURED PEOPLE! Some of you are claiming that "these" people should get off their butts and work!, they are using and abusing the system!, they should take responsibility for their own problems! Do people actually think that 41 MILLION PEOPLE are underserving of this country's attention?!?!?! And do people really think that all of their life situations are the same?!?! Are people really standing up to say NOT WITH MY MONEY? Do people have any idea just how horribly MISMANAGED their money is and NOT just in healthcare. Are people really okay with the way things are now?? It's INCREDIBLY hypocritical that people can be seemingly non-chalant about the plight of people in OUR OWN COUNTRY when billions of dollars in humanitarian aid is sent to countries around the world every single year. Or that billions and billions of dollars line the pockets of filthy rich CEOs of huge government buying corporations. Yet, people are whining about the small amount that is used for the needy (mostly middle class) in your own backyard? What gives?
I NEVER implied that United States citizens who earn a decent living should pay more in taxes to resolve this problem--that would hurt me just as much as the next person--but that seems to be some people's EXACT focus. It's not rocket science (or brain surgery)! Our healthcare system SUCKS. We may have the best technology in the world, but we are sixth behind Norway, Australia, Canada, Sweden, and Belgium when it comes to delivering the healthcare that comes with that technology AND we spend more per capita on healthcare than those other 5 countries as well! (If anyone wants a link I'll post it--that is if the United Nations Human Development Report is good enough for ya.)
It's embaressing, and this country IS arrogant, and I've had more productive conversations with people who are not even involved in healthcare about this problem. But that's not to say that I haven't learned a lot from posts on this thread.
Can anyone see the big picture or not? Can you set aside liberal/conservative, democratic/republican, rich/poor or not? Do you prefer a healthcare savings account type of approach to this problem? What do you want? If you all are so good at managing your own money to be able to live a nice lifestyle and take care of yourselves, then I think that you should demand the same of YOUR government!
I'm tellin' ya, as a nurse and a human, I'd rather deal with a person of little means anyday than with those who feel their comfort supercede's anyone else's no matter what.
~SallyLast edit by Sally_ICURN on Jan 30, '03