Is Health Care a Right?

Furball · Jan 25, 2003

I recently had a plastic bag that stated in big letters

DON"T PUT OVER YOUR HEAD!

Duh!

Sally_ICURN · Jan 25, 2003

SuzyK, I can confidently tell you that there's not even one person here who thinks that you shouldn't get paid for the work that you do OR that a hospital shouldn't be reimbursed for the cost of the services that it provides (but I personally don't think a hospital or healthcare company should turn millions in profits)! Nobody thinks you don't need your money or don't deserve a vacation, a retirement, a college education for your (future) kids, or a piano. I strive for these types of things as well. I think you miss the point completely. The way it works now is EXACTLY what you sound pissed off about because it's exactly what's causing your woes. You are certainly not alone in your thinking and I don't understand why millions of people are more offended about the misfortunes of others instead of being angry about the way those misfortunes are handled in our country. There will always be people who need help...always. Someone in this thread said it before...WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THAT UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE WILL COST INDIVIDUALS MORE, more than you're already paying anyway? Or even if universal healthcare's not the answer, why are you so resistant to a way to cover everyone regardless of thier perceived status in this country and change the problems that cause a dip deep into your pocket? I wonder what your thoughts are on the "charity" that your tax dollars go to in order feed and care for the indigent in countries other than our own? But forget about that, let's bring it back home...in my view, you're "flaming" and blaming the impoverished for this part of our democracy that's not working but should be working for the benefit of all including you, me, your father-in-law, and the neighbor's kids.

fergus51 · Jan 25, 2003

Thanks Sally, that was me. The plain fact is AMERICANS SPEND MORE MONEY ON HEALTH CARE THAN OTHER COUNTRIES WITH UNIVERSAL CARE. No one wants to adress the issue of how that money is spent, people just keep ranting on that they don't want to pay more taxes for the irresponsible welfare bums, when that is exactly what they are doing right now anyways.....

Q. · Jan 25, 2003

Tracy,

Do you think America's more advanced healthcare technology accounts for our increased spending? Let's not forget, Canadians cross the border to utilize our state-of-the-art care.

And Sally, I was responding to the ideas a few posts back that the more left over money that Taxpayer B has, the more unfair it is to everyone else:

The logic behind progresssive taxation Post #151
Ordinary working people depend on their earnings to pay the rent and put bread on the table. Wealthier people have discretionary income left over after they pay for life's necessities.

fergus51 · Jan 26, 2003

No, it doesn't. I thought that too. In fact, we have many of the same technologies you do, and the REALLY new state of the art stuff is hardly even used much by Americans so in the grand scheme of things does not account for a huge amount of the health care dollars spent in the US (not even when you factor in the research costs). Canadians usually go there because it is faster, not because they won't get it here (and foreigners are a source of revenue for the US, so the foreigners using your high tech care actually helps you financially). I swear Suzy, give me your adress and I will mail you that damn book!!!! PM me and it will be your Xmas present!!! Tell me your city and last name and I'll send it general delivery.

Americans spend a higher percentage of health care money on thing like administrative costs (mainly because of the fact that you aren't a single payer system) as well as using specialist type doctors (like using an internist when a GP or NP can do the job) and technologies (like MRIs) when they aren't necessary and not using them efficiently (having 50 MRIs running 6 hours a day instead of 15 running 24 hours a day). Not to mention the problems with malpractice insurance and lawsuits (I am sure I don't have to tell a fellow OB nurse how horrendous an impact they have on hospital and doctors' costs which means higher costs to patients). Not to mention things like prescription drug costs are too expensive, so the patient with TB only takes the meds for a little bit, then quits and starts spreading it around getting more people sick and costing the system more money. And the medicaid mess! If we agree on nothing else, I am sure we agree that needs some reform.

In the end you are paying for everyone's care who can't or isn't responsible enough to pay themselves whether you like it or not. The question is, should we leave the system the way it is or try something different? Universal care doesn't even have to mean access to the expensive new technologies. It could be a low cost tax saver in the end. Study after study has shown that money invested early will save much more money down the road when it comes to health.

fergus51 · Jan 26, 2003

And don't get me wrong, Canada has a lot of improvements it can and should make to improve its health care system. A lot! I just don't think that means the better alternative is to toss out universal care (paid through our taxes) and go to a US style system. Having been in both, I have absolutely no doubt which I prefer.

Q. · Jan 26, 2003

Part of your post struck me, and that was your mentioning of inappropriate services, like specialists or MRIs. Did you know that alot of patients demand this, regardless of appropriateness? Hell, we're even marketing Rx drugs on main stream television; patients go to their physicians and ask for the drug.

You'd think education would help. But it doesn't. I've educated patients and they still will do what they wanna do, regardless. Like I said on page 2 of this thread, in order to solve the health care problem, we need to change our societal's mindset.

fergus51 · Jan 26, 2003

TOTALLY agree with you! The same thing is happening here. Most Canadians watch American tv (cause it's WAAAAAYYYYY better than the Canadian stuff:)) and the ads are really influencing people. There was a study on the news awhile ago about how the most efective medication for high BP was the cheapest water pill. People need to learn that more expensive does not necessarily = better. A lot of people here are also starting to demand to see a specialist when it is unecessary. The difference is: here if it is inappropriate they have to pay for it out of pocket themselves. We will never be able to give everyone everything they want, just what they need is good enough for me unless they want to pay more. Change the rules and the mindsets become irrelevant to a certain extent. It can be done. I don't pretend to say that it'll be easy, but it is possible.

Also, in my province I have noticed there are no real NPs yet and midwives only became registered a few years ago (no CNMs). They are an EXCELLENT tool for lowering health care costs, but many people look down on them and wouldn't consider going to a non-MD, even for something simple. Alberta still won't even pay for midwifery care even though midwives are registered there and CHEAPER.

maureeno · Jan 26, 2003

One of my sisters is a family practice doc married to an ER doc. She says 60% of visits are not needed. She complains of people coming in demanding she give them what they have seen on tv. Both she and my brother-in-law say too much of medical practice is guided by fear of litigation. They both gripe about the drug companies and the huge budgets for 'education and promotion'. They would both like to see universal insurance coverage with deductibles and co-pays and more regulation of big pharma. They've been doctors for 20 years and find less satisfaction by the day.

Health care will be a giant issue the next few years; here is news from CNN.com about BushII's state of the union speech for Monday:

>>>On the domestic side, White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said Bush will talk about health care and the need to make the country a "more caring, compassionate place."

"The president views [the] State of the Union as a moment to talk about the big challenges, the major challenges our nation faces at home and abroad," Fleischer said Friday. "He sees it as an opportunity for this generation and for people who are in office today to face up to these challenges and to deal with them, not to pass them on to future generations."

Without giving specific details, the official also said Bush will offer new ideas for helping those in "pockets of despair" who have not "found the American dream."

Nurse Ratched, RN · Jan 26, 2003

Originally posted by Flo1216
So just out of curiosity, are poor lifestyle choices that result in illness or injury forgivable as long as the person making those choices has coverage?

In answer to your question, I am a believer in the freedoms that this country has to offer. A person can say or do or be anything. However, do not ask me to pay for the poor choices made by others. If someone makes bad choices and accepts the consequences of them, fine. I feel that the consequences of poor health choices ought to be a "high risk" plan with higher rates. Just don't raise my rates or taxes (any more than they already are...)

https://allnurses.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24107&highlight=fixing+health+care

We had a pretty good disussion of this a while back - no solutions, however, unfortunately.

MOMMY · Jan 28, 2003

Is health care a right? Do I have the right to health care? Do you have the right to health care? Do you have insurance? Do you have a Gauranteer? In the health care system we know that everyone has a right to health care, once stablelized then you get shipped to a charity hospital if they will accept you. if you do not have insurance. If you have insurance, with HMO approval you get shipped upstairs to a bed. Health care costs money, hey that is how I earn my paycheck. So in essisance everyone gets health care, it is the quality that you may need to check into. I'm not saying that every place places less importance on the uninsured, however, how many times have you heard. We are not getting paid for that bed, lets discharge them quickly or ship them off. Were is the quality of care there. While an HMO may fuss and fume about keeping a patient in the hospital if there is enough diagnostics they will back down and allow the patient to stay. When I was at an MD appointment with a friend who had a child with a shunt, the child had frequent hospitalizations for pneumonia diagnosis. When I questioned the MD about what he was doing to find out the cause of the frequent hospitalizations, he reported that the family could not afford to find out the cause, you see this child was recieving medicaid. He would much rather have the child in the hospital for two weeks being treated for pneumonia rather that find out the reason why he was sick so often. After some fast talking I got my friend to switch Doctors, the new doctor started giving the child hemaglobin injections which stopped the frequent hospitalizations and it was about 10 years between hospital stays. The last one was to replace the shunt that he had for 13 years! When we look at the big picture it is not only the fact that every one needs the same quality health care accross the board, we need the health care system to have the same sense of loyalty to the welfare of their fellow man, no matter how much they make.

Flo1216, so what ever happened to an ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure? If we invest ourselfs to teach better health care, to teach those who have known nothing other than the welfare and medicaid system to help themselves then we have provided a better investment for our money than just handing it over to those who feel they need it. During the great depression, many of the working class would hold signs up saying "will work for food." Do we see this now? If you do it is most likely and exception to the rule. While in the service we were asked to give money to charities, after carefull research, I decided to donate to the Shriners. Why, because 100% goes to those who need it. No to buildings, not to advertisements and not to any CEO. Look it up. Most important to me they never praise themselves. Their advertisements if you are fortunate to here one is asking for those persons in need, they do not tread on you sympathy to give to some poor crippled child. The moral of the story, Invest your money wisely. Before you feel sorry for those who can not afford to better themselves like go to college, how many of you out there are still paying off student loans. I finally paid mine off that I use to obtain my LPN license and I used my GI bill I earned by serving my country for 4 years to obtain my RN. So if there is a will there is a way, all we have to do is present it to those who need it. I watched a show the other day (Ophra) were a family in third world country was given a goat which allowed them to provide for themselves verses just giving them everything. While I know that giving a person a goat in this country may not help, lets find something that will. I would much rather put my money in a scholarship fund, than in a bucket that is labled feed the hungry, for that I would gladly purchase the food if I knew that the person I was feeding was being shown how to help feed themselves.

Merry1 · Jan 28, 2003

Not a right. Enough people abuse what they have, you want to encourage even more? No one is turned away from the ER by law. We all make choices in life and I feel bad for thoes who choose poorly but why should my grandchildren have to pay for their care??