Did I do the right thing? - page 4

Did I do the right thing? I have a close friend.....and that person has been denying they have a alcohol addiction problem. They made me feel guilty for even asking if they had a problem.Things got... Read More

  1. by   jackstem
    Quote from magsulfate
    one thing i want you to understand is, tpapn is not punitive. it is not punishment, and this is very important for him to understand. the punishment will come if/when he does not follow tpapn's rules and does not complete tpapn. the peer assistance programs were formed as a non punitive,, alternative to punishment and a way for nurses to recover and return to work as a nurse.

    amen mag...amen!

    jack
  2. by   Keysnurse2008
    Quote from jackstem
    amen mag...amen!

    jack
    i guess i know that it isnt punitive. i got to read a copy of his contract...and it is rough. i mean it looks like every waking moment is spent either working or going to a meeting of one or another thing. i mean he has a family...so when will he really get to spend time with his kids? i mean....it is so rigorous it does appear punitive..but i guess holding his hand and singing kumbahya isnt getting it huh?

    but also...i mean i keep getting told that physicians are treated so differently. like their peers have no idea that they are in a program...whereas nurses...well their coworkers do know. so does that seem fair?bc their social reputation is preserved whereas the nurses is not. so...shouldnt all the boards be under one monitoring agreement?
  3. by   Magsulfate
    Quote from keysnurse2008
    i guess i know that it isnt punitive. i got to read a copy of his contract...and it is rough. i mean it looks like every waking moment is spent either working or going to a meeting of one or another thing. i mean he has a family...so when will he really get to spend time with his kids? i mean....it is so rigorous it does appear punitive..but i guess holding his hand and singing kumbahya isnt getting it huh?

    but also...i mean i keep getting told that physicians are treated so differently. like their peers have no idea that they are in a program...whereas nurses...well their coworkers do know. so does that seem fair?bc their social reputation is preserved whereas the nurses is not. so...shouldnt all the boards be under one monitoring agreement?
    physicians have money/power, attorneys and prescriptive authority. it is a whole other ball game with them. you can't even compare the two.

    as far as him spending time with his family.. he will have more time with them now than he's had in a long time. there's one hour a day in aa/na.. that is to keep him from relapsing and helping him to take it one day at a time. then there's work.. of course he worked before. but,, here's the kicker... the one hour he's spending in meetings is probably less time than the time he spent drunk at home with his kids,, or at a bar ,, or going to the liquor store..etc.

    so, i really don't think the time issue is a problem. the way you said that it sounds like you've been listening to him.. maybe he said that? it sounds like it.. another excuse. i know you're trying to help him ,, i am just saying.. it really sounds like it came out of his mouth.
  4. by   jackstem
    Quote from keysnurse2008
    i guess i know that it isnt punitive. i got to read a copy of his contract...and it is rough. i mean it looks like every waking moment is spent either working or going to a meeting of one or another thing. i mean he has a family...so when will he really get to spend time with his kids? i mean....it is so rigorous it does appear punitive..but i guess holding his hand and singing kumbahya isnt getting it huh?

    but also...i mean i keep getting told that physicians are treated so differently. like their peers have no idea that they are in a program...whereas nurses...well their coworkers do know. so does that seem fair?bc their social reputation is preserved whereas the nurses is not. so...shouldnt all the boards be under one monitoring agreement?
    he (and everyone else involved) need to stop comparing his contract with what a doc gets. he's not a doc. it wouldn't matter if he was. his contract is his contract, and that's the one he needs to focus on.

    now he can be ticked off and feel like people are defecating on him, or he can wake up and smell the coffee (which may take a few weeks, because his brain is messed up as a result of the disease and his substance misuse). if he continues down the path that the disease has taken him, he won't have a family. he won't have time to spend with his kids...especially if he's in jail or dead. this disease kills people. it's as deadly as cancer, heart disease, or any other chronic, progressive illness. look at michael jackson. lot's of money and talent. a personal doctor with him when he collapses...and he's still dead. john belushi....dead. elvis presley...dead. river phoenix...dead.

    if this disease was purely physical, do you think a contract would be required to return to work? no. this disease alters a person's personality, their ability to make rational decisions, their ability to "just say no" (if any catch phrase was based on sheer ignorance of this disease, that's one of them). this is not a punitive contract. it's exactly what's needed to get him over the denial which keeps the addict in their own little lala land that allows them to keep using. it puts teeth into the consequences of relapse. it creates the toughness that friends and family can rarely create, at least initially. the consequences of relapse are many...divorce, loss of job, maybe even some jail time. but for addicts who have access to some of the most powerful substances on the face of the earth...the first sign of a relapse is too frequently death.

    so yes, it appears punitive...to the naive and the uninitiated. however, it can actually be the one thing that keeps him alive. it is definitely the only thing that will keep his career alive. if he chooses to play games, his license and career are gone. believe me when i say, losing that career can make finding another job very difficult. i'm speaking from experience, an experience i don't want others to have to go through. unfortunately, many are destined to repeat the experience. it's the nature of the disease.

    please read the book "staying sober". it will give you a better handle on this disease than we can give you in this forum. if you really want to get a better understanding of addiction you must read, read, read. i know most of us here don't mind answering questions, but i think your best bet for getting a strong basis of understanding will require more information than we can supply in this forum.

    if you'd like, pm me for more in-depth discussion.

    jack
  5. by   Keysnurse2008
    Quote from jackstem
    he (and everyone else involved) need to stop comparing his contract with what a doc gets. he's not a doc. it wouldn't matter if he was. his contract is his contract, and that's the one he needs to focus on.

    now he can be ticked off and feel like people are defecating on him, or he can wake up and smell the coffee (which may take a few weeks, because his brain is messed up as a result of the disease and his substance misuse). if he continues down the path that the disease has taken him, he won't have a family. he won't have time to spend with his kids...especially if he's in jail or dead. this disease kills people. it's as deadly as cancer, heart disease, or any other chronic, progressive illness. look at michael jackson. lot's of money and talent. a personal doctor with him when he collapses...and he's still dead. john belushi....dead. elvis presley...dead. river phoenix...dead.

    if this disease was purely physical, do you think a contract would be required to return to work? no. this disease alters a person's personality, their ability to make rational decisions, their ability to "just say no" (if any catch phrase was based on sheer ignorance of this disease, that's one of them). this is not a punitive contract. it's exactly what's needed to get him over the denial which keeps the addict in their own little lala land that allows them to keep using. it puts teeth into the consequences of relapse. it creates the toughness that friends and family can rarely create, at least initially. the consequences of relapse are many...divorce, loss of job, maybe even some jail time. but for addicts who have access to some of the most powerful substances on the face of the earth...the first sign of a relapse is too frequently death.

    so yes, it appears punitive...to the naive and the uninitiated. however, it can actually be the one thing that keeps him alive. it is definitely the only thing that will keep his career alive. if he chooses to play games, his license and career are gone. believe me when i say, losing that career can make finding another job very difficult. i'm speaking from experience, an experience i don't want others to have to go through. unfortunately, many are destined to repeat the experience. it's the nature of the disease.

    please read the book "staying sober". it will give you a better handle on this disease than we can give you in this forum. if you really want to get a better understanding of addiction you must read, read, read. i know most of us here don't mind answering questions, but i think your best bet for getting a strong basis of understanding will require more information than we can supply in this forum.

    if you'd like, pm me for more in-depth discussion.

    jack
    i guess i am still looking at this as if it is something easily controllable....and it isnt...i get that. it is hard to understand...but....i guess i am lucky i dont understand. i have actually ordered 2 of the books you talked about. i love to read...and as i still dont understand alot about this it might help. i do have one question though.....with the tpapn contract being so rigorious....is there any data available on the success rates? i mean....like...exactly how many can complete the program from begining to end without a violation? and also how do you guys handle it when you go on vacation....if you are oit of state as his family is?you call the number each morning...and there has to be a lab nearby? i know he is trying to wiggle out of signing the contract...which is sounds like is par the course. and i was suprised when he showed me the things he has to do. but....it looks like nothing else has worked. he acts like his case manager is going to be a real hard a**, but...i cant help but think that they will work with him if he wants to travel to see his family out of state. that was the big issue.
  6. by   Magsulfate
    Quote from keysnurse2008
    i guess i am still looking at this as if it is something easily controllable....and it isnt...i get that. it is hard to understand...but....i guess i am lucky i dont understand. i have actually ordered 2 of the books you talked about. i love to read...and as i still dont understand alot about this it might help. i do have one question though.....with the tpapn contract being so rigorious....is there any data available on the success rates? i mean....like...exactly how many can complete the program from begining to end without a violation? and also how do you guys handle it when you go on vacation....if you are oit of state as his family is?you call the number each morning...and there has to be a lab nearby? i know he is trying to wiggle out of signing the contract...which is sounds like is par the course. and i was suprised when he showed me the things he has to do. but....it looks like nothing else has worked. he acts like his case manager is going to be a real hard a**, but...i cant help but think that they will work with him if he wants to travel to see his family out of state. that was the big issue.
    yes, they will work with him if he needs to travel out of state for a bit. but like the contract says (and i am very familiar with this contract) he cannot move out of the state, and you better believe they will be testing him as soon as he returns. vacation is the ultimate kicker for alcoholics/drug addicted.

    i don't know the statistics of tpapn completion vs failure rates. but i do know many people that have completed it, and i don't personally know any that have failed. i have read several court orders of nurses that did not complete tpapn and have had their license revoked. i also know nurses that are in the program right now. they are happy, they are grateful for life and grateful for a second chance at their career. i think i read in the last newsletter that there were about 700 tpapn participants (this is texas only of course) right now.

    if he can get over this hump ,, he will finally see the light and understand what is going on. he doesn't see it right now. just like jack says,, his brain is fried. (well, maybe jack didn't say it like that. ) but it is fried. and it will take time to heal. once it does, he will be a different person. he will be grateful, he will be sorry.. he will have a new lease on life.
  7. by   jackstem
    Quote from Magsulfate
    If he can get over this hump ,, he will finally see the light and understand what is going on. He doesn't see it right now. Just like Jack says,, his brain is fried. (well, maybe jack didn't say it like that. ) But it is fried. And it will take time to heal. Once it does, he will be a different person. He will be grateful, he will be sorry.. he will have a new lease on life.
    AMEN again Mag!!! Preachin' to the choir!

    Jack
  8. by   Magsulfate
    ohh jack,, you forgot the wonderful anna nicole (and her son), the iconic marilyn monroe........ judy garland.

    heath ledger..

    elvis presley...

    bruce lee..

    one of my favorite actors of all time chris farley..... that broke my heart. john belushi.

    sid viscious... janis joplin .. jim morrison.... andy gibb...jim hendrix... rick james...ike turner...keith whitley...very different musicians, but they awesome in their own way.

    kimberly from different strokes...

    howard hughes...


    i could go on... but you get the point right??





    Quote from jackstem
    he (and everyone else involved) need to stop comparing his contract with what a doc gets. he's not a doc. it wouldn't matter if he was. his contract is his contract, and that's the one he needs to focus on.

    now he can be ticked off and feel like people are defecating on him, or he can wake up and smell the coffee (which may take a few weeks, because his brain is messed up as a result of the disease and his substance misuse). if he continues down the path that the disease has taken him, he won't have a family. he won't have time to spend with his kids...especially if he's in jail or dead. this disease kills people. it's as deadly as cancer, heart disease, or any other chronic, progressive illness. look at michael jackson. lot's of money and talent. a personal doctor with him when he collapses...and he's still dead. john belushi....dead. elvis presley...dead. river phoenix...dead.

    if this disease was purely physical, do you think a contract would be required to return to work? no. this disease alters a person's personality, their ability to make rational decisions, their ability to "just say no" (if any catch phrase was based on sheer ignorance of this disease, that's one of them). this is not a punitive contract. it's exactly what's needed to get him over the denial which keeps the addict in their own little lala land that allows them to keep using. it puts teeth into the consequences of relapse. it creates the toughness that friends and family can rarely create, at least initially. the consequences of relapse are many...divorce, loss of job, maybe even some jail time. but for addicts who have access to some of the most powerful substances on the face of the earth...the first sign of a relapse is too frequently death.

    so yes, it appears punitive...to the naive and the uninitiated. however, it can actually be the one thing that keeps him alive. it is definitely the only thing that will keep his career alive. if he chooses to play games, his license and career are gone. believe me when i say, losing that career can make finding another job very difficult. i'm speaking from experience, an experience i don't want others to have to go through. unfortunately, many are destined to repeat the experience. it's the nature of the disease.

    please read the book "staying sober". it will give you a better handle on this disease than we can give you in this forum. if you really want to get a better understanding of addiction you must read, read, read. i know most of us here don't mind answering questions, but i think your best bet for getting a strong basis of understanding will require more information than we can supply in this forum.

    if you'd like, pm me for more in-depth discussion.

    jack
  9. by   jackstem
    Quote from magsulfate
    ohh jack,, you forgot the wonderful anna nicole (and her son), the iconic marilyn monroe........ judy garland.

    heath ledger..

    elvis presley...

    bruce lee..

    one of my favorite actors of all time chris farley..... that broke my heart. john belushi.

    sid viscious... janis joplin .. jim morrison.... andy gibb...jim hendrix... rick james...ike turner...keith whitley...very different musicians, but they awesome in their own way.

    kimberly from different strokes...

    howard hughes...


    i could go on... but you get the point right??
    yep...that is the list of the victims of the "drug war". the only people dyin' are the addicts.

    and it's gonna continue until we change the way we approach the whole thing. the popous politicians, the righteous police and boards of nursing, medicine, pharmacy, etc. have to change what they're doing since it ain't workin' the way they're doing things now.

    jack
  10. by   Keysnurse2008
    Quote from jackstem
    yep...that is the list of the victims of the "drug war". the only people dyin' are the addicts.

    and it's gonna continue until we change the way we approach the whole thing. the popous politicians, the righteous police and boards of nursing, medicine, pharmacy, etc. have to change what they're doing since it ain't workin' the way they're doing things now.

    jack
    if you guys could change anything about the way the bon, or the board of medicine attempts to help what way would you change it?
  11. by   Magsulfate
    Quote from keysnurse2008
    if you guys could change anything about the way the bon, or the board of medicine attempts to help what way would you change it?
    well, each state is different. i agree with the concept of the peer advocacy groups and the alternative to punishment. i might just change the length of the program in texas. i just don't think that two years is long enough. i know that other states are longer as much as 5 years. this might not be a popular opinion.,, but it is what i think...
  12. by   jackstem
    Quote from keysnurse2008
    if you guys could change anything about the way the bon, or the board of medicine attempts to help what way would you change it?
    i agree with mag...at least 5 years for monitoring. the peer advisors for the aana recommend some sort of monitoring for the remainder of the clinician's career.

    the biggest thing i would like to see changed would be to make education regarding the disease mandatory for all board members (as well as all training programs), and a recovering nurse must be a member of any committee charged with reviewing complaints regarding an impaired nurse. ignorance of the disease is the largest problem we have in dealing with it effectively. and intentional ignorance is unethical and unprofessional. have you noticed that hiv/aids ceu's are required? have you noticed that certain legal courses are required (at least they are in ohio). anyone notice there's no mandatory ceu's regarding one of the biggest (if not the biggest) public health issues in this country...substance abuse and addiction? time to face this disease head on instead of playing word and political games. too many people are dying.

    jack
  13. by   Keysnurse2008
    I am suprised that they dont have people that have successfully completed the program on the panel that reviews complaints. I mean .....that would be the equivilant to having me on the panel that reviews them. And ....I apparently am pretty gullable. I still cant completly grasp everything you guys are describing. I almost fell for his shennanigans again the other day when he told me what was in the contract. I dont consider myself easily manipulated....but I have been. So there is no way to compare the knowledge I would bring to a review panel with what one of you guys would.So....that suprises me ...that they dont have recovering nurses on there. What about leaders for these peer group meetings....and the case managers....?

close