Did I do the right thing?

michigooseBSN · Jun 24, 2009

What a terrible position to have been in. My feeling is since there were children involved, you definitely did the right thing. An active alcoholic is in denial of how his or her disease is affecting those around him. And therefore someone outside the situation needs to protect the innocent children. Nevertheless, it must have been really hard to do what you did. But just think how you would feel if you had stayed silent and the children had been physically harmed which was very likely to happen under these circumstances. The other thing you could have done, or still can do is make an anonymous report of child abuse or neglect to your state's Dept of Social Services. God bless you for caring!

Keysnurse2008 · Jun 24, 2009

what a terrible position to have been in. my feeling is since there were children involved, you definitely did the right thing. an active alcoholic is in denial of how his or her disease is affecting those around him. and therefore someone outside the situation needs to protect the innocent children. nevertheless, it must have been really hard to do what you did. but just think how you would feel if you had stayed silent and the children had been physically harmed which was very likely to happen under these circumstances. the other thing you could have done, or still can do is make an anonymous report of child abuse or neglect to your state's dept of social services. god bless you for caring!

i talked to the case manager of the peer assistance program about the kids. he tried to quit he said on his own a few weeks ago and 48 hours later he basically did something similar ( wont say what to protect his idenity) to seizing. he was worked up for "seizures" and was cleared. it was only a few weeks later after he showed up to work intoxicated...whiskey on his breath,,,...slurred speech ....that there was no denying it anymore. the kids....havent been in school in 8 months. thye said they quit because "daddy couldnt take them to school anymore and the teachers were mad". when i drove him home that day from work....and he couldnt even walk...the kids didnt act like anything was " different"....like this was normal. i keep thinking...if i had come over to hang out more often maybe it wouldnt have gottenthis bad. maybe....if i had been more investigative i would have found out sooner and could have intervened before it got so bad he showed up to work dog drunk. how could it have gotten this bad and me not see it? i asked him do you have a problem? ,,,....and each time iasked if he had a problem he made me feel guilty for even asking. i dont know anything about addiction...or how to help. i dont know how to help him. the facility is going to press charges with the bon.....but i thought...this peer assistance thing ....could be the thing that helps him keep his liscense....so he could keep his kids. i dont know...did i do the right thing? what happens to him now? how does this whole peer assiatnce thing work? what usually happens in situations like that? i feel like a dog. i do. i just didnt want those kids finding him dead....bc that is a real possibility.

michigooseBSN · Jun 24, 2009

Well, I would guess that if he showed up to work drunk and was sent home, the BON has been notified by his employer. So that is out of your hands now. And if the kids are missing school and living without adult supervision other than a drunken father, I would feel obligated for their sake to involve DSS. No, daily drinkers cannot just stop by themselves even if they want to because of the symptoms of withdrawal (such as seizures) which can actually be fatal. A medically supervised detox program is necessary. Then involvement with a 12 step program like AA provides the help and the structure for learning to live a sober life. If he is willing to do this, there is hope for him. In the meantime I would strongly urge you to go to a few Alanon meetings to help you deal with this sad situation. I've been in recovery in AA for over 17 years now and attending Alanon for this past year also and couldn't recommend it more highly. And as a retired school nurse, I'm really concerned for the children.

Keysnurse2008 · Jun 24, 2009

it is just a bad situation. what i dont understand is how everything kinda works. i know the bon is mainly concerned about protecting the public.....and this peer assistance is more worried about getting him help. i think everyone kinda lost sight of the fact that he is a good guy....and all...but he has just lost sight of what is important. i dont understand physcial addiction. i guess...from what i am reading i am very lucky. i mean....i like chocolate...but if chocolate potentially could cost me my livelihood i wouldnt be eating it. i'd start eating granola...or popcorn....or just leave snacks alone period. so...i dont understand a physcial need for a liquid or a substance. i cant find anyones blog that describes it either. i think alot of people think it is a choice....and i think that too. you are recovering right now....so every day you make a choice to not use/drink. so...even though it is a choice.....i still see patients in dt's in the er all the er all teh time. i see seizures, tremors, temps spiking to the 105 range,...mi's...arrythmias....etc etc ...so while i know there is some kind of physcial componenet too. i just dont understand it

michigooseBSN · Jun 24, 2009

I could write a book about addiction but "Jackstem" says it better in this forum. Look up his postings and read them for a description of the disease of addiction. all I can say is that I am powerless over substances such as alcohol and opiates and as long as I avoid them my life is wonderful. Once one of them is in my system, I have no control over the outcome. I may stop at one but I may just as likely keep on until I'm intoxicated. I don't know why. It's just the way my body works. as far as the BOD goes. Yes of course they are there to protect the public but at least in my state (Massachusetts) they are eager to help the addicted nurse achieve recovery and sobriety. I went thru a 5 year program for substance abuse recovery (SARP) that was run by my BON and Peer assistance group meetings were only one of the parts of the program. AA and random drug tests and BON meetings were all required also. SARP saved my life and my gratitude is immense. Keep on educating yourself about the disease of addiction. You'll be a better nurse for doing so.

jackstem · Jun 24, 2009

Keysnurse2008,

Yes, you did the right thing. The reason you feel "bad" is primarily due to the lack of understanding you have regarding the pathophysiology of the disease. Don't feel bad, you are in great company! Very few health care providers receive adequate education about this chronic, progressive, UNNECESSARILY fatal disease. Would you feel bad if you did CPR on someone after a heart attack? Or better yet, you called 911 despite objections by the person who was experiencing chest pain, SOB, diaphoresis, and all the other signs of an MI? Of course not. Why not? Because you understand coronary artery disease and the signs and symptoms of an acute MI.

Addiction is a genetically based disease of the brain that is triggered when the right substance, in the right amount, for the right amount of time, under the right circumstances occurs. It can take years to be triggered, or it can be triggered after one exposure to a potent form of the right substance (crack cocaine or crystal meth are good examples). The areas of the brain targeted by this disease are the "pleasure center", decision making, impulse control, and the areas responsible for memory and motivation. Once addiction is triggered, the addict becomes obsessed with obtaining their drug of choice. Once they have the drug, they will compulsively use it until it's gone (they have no control over use). Then the cycle starts again. The addict is incapable of stopping this cycle alone, which is why an intervention is required in almost every case. The person who is abusing a substance but eventually "realizes" they have a drug "problem" isn't an addict. That's what seperates the addict from the abuser...the ability to realize the problem and take the steps necessary to stop.

Why is it easy to understand a brain tumor can cause significant changes in mood, emotions, and the ability to control behavior, yet we totally disregard the significant effects these powerful drugs in combination with a genetic susceptibility to brain chemistry and structural changes can lead to alterations in mood, emotions, and ability to control chemical ingestion? Is it because someone wiht a tumor "didn't do it to themselves"?

People have heart attacks everyday as a result of their genetics, failure to exercise, and extremely dangerous diets. We don't seem to have a problem treating them, even though "they did it to themselves". The same with lung cancer in smokers.

We struggle with addiction because we still see it as a moral issue, not a medical one. This is based on the serious lack of education in our nursing and medical schools. And of the two professions, nursing seems to be the one that really doesn't "get it". We defecate on our colleagues with addiction more than any other group. HBO did a great series of documentaries on Addiction. They talked about a Steamfitter's Union who saw the significant problem of substance abuse and addiction in their ranks and decided to do something about it. The union increased dues and used the extra money to establish a fund specifically for addiction treatment. This means that any member requiring treatment gets it...for as long as needed...without using insurance or any other method of payment. And they receive treatment as many times as necessary. Will nurses do this? Of course not. The reponse I've heard when the possibility is discussed is, "Why should we all have to pay extra money for these idiots who do it to themselves." Compassionate and scientifically based...right? Pretty sad when a group of non-medically trained individuals "get it", but health care "professionals" don't. And I put professional in quotes because the scientific data is available, yet very few nurses take the time to read it and gain an understanding of this deadly disease.

Substance abuse and addiction are major, major public health issues. It's estimated that over half of all admissions to trauma center ER's are a result of substance misuse. Depending on the study you look at, 12 - 15% of the general population is dealing with addiction. If any other disease was occurring at that rate, would we ignore it? Of course not. The average age for first use of a mood altering substance has dropped below 12 years of age! Yet we continue to ignore this disease. Sad state of affairs.

Some great reading on the following web site. I highly recommend them.

Addiction Science Forum

Drugs, Brain, and Behavior: The Science of Addiction (National Drug Institute)

The Addicted Brain (Harvard Medical School)

The Addicted Brain (Cambridge Neuroscience)

The Brain: How Drugs Affect Neurotransmitters (The Brain from Top to Bottom)

William White - In Search of the Neurobiology of Addiction Recovery: A Brief Commentary on Science and Stigma

RECOVERY MANAGEMENT: WHAT IF WE REALLY BELIEVED THAT ADDICTION WAS A CHRONIC DISORDER?

If these don't bore you, let me know...I got a million of them!

You did a good thing by intervening. If this gentleman succeeds in achieving recovery, he will thank you! He'll realize you saved his life.

Way to go!!!

Jack

Keysnurse2008 · Jun 25, 2009

keysnurse2008,
yes, you did the right thing. the reason you feel "bad" is primarily due to the lack of understanding you have regarding the pathophysiology of the disease. don't feel bad, you are in great company! very few health care providers receive adequate education about this chronic, progressive, unnecessarily fatal disease. would you feel bad if you did cpr on someone after a heart attack? or better yet, you called 911 despite objections by the person who was experiencing chest pain, sob, diaphoresis, and all the other signs of an mi? of course not. why not? because you understand coronary artery disease and the signs and symptoms of an acute mi.
addiction is a genetically based disease of the brain that is triggered when the right substance, in the right amount, for the right amount of time, under the right circumstances occurs. it can take years to be triggered, or it can be triggered after one exposure to a potent form of the right substance (crack cocaine or crystal meth are good examples). the areas of the brain targeted by this disease are the "pleasure center", decision making, impulse control, and the areas responsible for memory and motivation. once addiction is triggered, the addict becomes obsessed with obtaining their drug of choice. once they have the drug, they will compulsively use it until it's gone (they have no control over use). then the cycle starts again. the addict is incapable of stopping this cycle alone, which is why an intervention is required in almost every case. the person who is abusing a substance but eventually "realizes" they have a drug "problem" isn't an addict. that's what seperates the addict from the abuser...the ability to realize the problem and take the steps necessary to stop.
why is it easy to understand a brain tumor can cause significant changes in mood, emotions, and the ability to control behavior, yet we totally disregard the significant effects these powerful drugs in combination with a genetic susceptibility to brain chemistry and structural changes can lead to alterations in mood, emotions, and ability to control chemical ingestion? is it because someone wiht a tumor "didn't do it to themselves"?
people have heart attacks everyday as a result of their genetics, failure to exercise, and extremely dangerous diets. we don't seem to have a problem treating them, even though "they did it to themselves". the same with lung cancer in smokers.
we struggle with addiction because we still see it as a moral issue, not a medical one. this is based on the serious lack of education in our nursing and medical schools. and of the two professions, nursing seems to be the one that really doesn't "get it". we defecate on our colleagues with addiction more than any other group. hbo did a great series of documentaries on addiction. they talked about a steamfitter's union who saw the significant problem of substance abuse and addiction in their ranks and decided to do something about it. the union increased dues and used the extra money to establish a fund specifically for addiction treatment. this means that any member requiring treatment gets it...for as long as needed...without using insurance or any other method of payment. and they receive treatment as many times as necessary. will nurses do this? of course not. the reponse i've heard when the possibility is discussed is, "why should we all have to pay extra money for these idiots who do it to themselves." compassionate and scientifically based...right? pretty sad when a group of non-medically trained individuals "get it", but health care "professionals" don't. and i put professional in quotes because the scientific data is available, yet very few nurses take the time to read it and gain an understanding of this deadly disease.
substance abuse and addiction are major, major public health issues. it's estimated that over half of all admissions to trauma center er's are a result of substance misuse. depending on the study you look at, 12 - 15% of the general population is dealing with addiction. if any other disease was occurring at that rate, would we ignore it? of course not. the average age for first use of a mood altering substance has dropped below 12 years of age! yet we continue to ignore this disease. sad state of affairs.
some great reading on the following web site. i highly recommend them.
addiction science forum
drugs, brain, and behavior: the science of addiction (national drug institute)
the addicted brain (harvard medical school)
the addicted brain (cambridge neuroscience)
the brain: how drugs affect neurotransmitters (the brain from top to bottom)
william white - in search of the neurobiology of addiction recovery: a brief commentary on science and stigma
recovery management: what if we really believed that addiction was a chronic disorder?
if these don't bore you, let me know...i got a million of them!
you did a good thing by intervening. if this gentleman succeeds in achieving recovery, he will thank you! he'll realize you saved his life.
way to go!!!
jack

i actually just got a call. he went into a inpatient treatment program in the houston area. his mom has the kids. wow...thanks for the information. i dont look at it as a personal failure or a flaw. i knew there had to be some kind of chemical / genetic basis for why one person will become addicted and another not. i dont think anyone would "choose" what has happened to him. ...but ...ya know .....even in the ed .....we have never gotten alot of education on it. so....thank you

Magsulfate, BSN, RN · Jun 25, 2009

it is just a bad situation. what i dont understand is how everything kinda works. i know the bon is mainly concerned about protecting the public.....and this peer assistance is more worried about getting him help. i think everyone kinda lost sight of the fact that he is a good guy....and all...but he has just lost sight of what is important. i dont understand physcial addiction. i guess...from what i am reading i am very lucky. i mean....i like chocolate...but if chocolate potentially could cost me my livelihood i wouldnt be eating it. i'd start eating granola...or popcorn....or just leave snacks alone period. so...i dont understand a physcial need for a liquid or a substance. i cant find anyones blog that describes it either. i think alot of people think it is a choice....and i think that too. you are recovering right now....so every day you make a choice to not use/drink. so...even though it is a choice.....i still see patients in dt's in the er all the er all teh time. i see seizures, tremors, temps spiking to the 105 range,...mi's...arrythmias....etc etc ...so while i know there is some kind of physcial componenet too. i just dont understand it

alcoholism and addiction are diseases. do you think diabetes or cancer is a choice? no, obviously it is not. alcoholism and addiction are not a choice. there is scientific studies that show evidence of the differences in brain function of an alcoholic or narcotic addicted person and a non addicted person. even years after recovery and years since using their drug of choice, the brain is still altered.

i won't go into the details here, it is just too much to get into.

as far as your friend. it seems like he will get the help he needs, that is, if he wants to keep his nursing license. you wrote, yourself, that he is a good man. do you honestly believe that he would do this to himself and his children by choice? no one does this by choice, it is terrible. it hurts everyone around him and it will take years for the people around him to forgive him. it may take even longer than that for the children to forgive him from taking their childhood away.

since he was reported to the bon, he will have to sober up and follow their rules, tightly, or he will lose his license. in turn, this will make his home life much better, but he will have to work at it, and work at it hard. he will need friends like you to support him through this.

you may not ever know what happens to him, you may not ever know if there was disciplinary action taken against him. that is private information. unless he tells you himself. just know that you did the right thing.

Magsulfate, BSN, RN · Jun 25, 2009

Yeah, what he said.

lol

Keysnurse2008,
Yes, you did the right thing. The reason you feel "bad" is primarily due to the lack of understanding you have regarding the pathophysiology of the disease. Don't feel bad, you are in great company! Very few health care providers receive adequate education about this chronic, progressive, UNNECESSARILY fatal disease. Would you feel bad if you did CPR on someone after a heart attack? Or better yet, you called 911 despite objections by the person who was experiencing chest pain, SOB, diaphoresis, and all the other signs of an MI? Of course not. Why not? Because you understand coronary artery disease and the signs and symptoms of an acute MI.
Addiction is a genetically based disease of the brain that is triggered when the right substance, in the right amount, for the right amount of time, under the right circumstances occurs. It can take years to be triggered, or it can be triggered after one exposure to a potent form of the right substance (crack cocaine or crystal meth are good examples). The areas of the brain targeted by this disease are the "pleasure center", decision making, impulse control, and the areas responsible for memory and motivation. Once addiction is triggered, the addict becomes obsessed with obtaining their drug of choice. Once they have the drug, they will compulsively use it until it's gone (they have no control over use). Then the cycle starts again. The addict is incapable of stopping this cycle alone, which is why an intervention is required in almost every case. The person who is abusing a substance but eventually "realizes" they have a drug "problem" isn't an addict. That's what seperates the addict from the abuser...the ability to realize the problem and take the steps necessary to stop.
Why is it easy to understand a brain tumor can cause significant changes in mood, emotions, and the ability to control behavior, yet we totally disregard the significant effects these powerful drugs in combination with a genetic susceptibility to brain chemistry and structural changes can lead to alterations in mood, emotions, and ability to control chemical ingestion? Is it because someone wiht a tumor "didn't do it to themselves"?
People have heart attacks everyday as a result of their genetics, failure to exercise, and extremely dangerous diets. We don't seem to have a problem treating them, even though "they did it to themselves". The same with lung cancer in smokers.
We struggle with addiction because we still see it as a moral issue, not a medical one. This is based on the serious lack of education in our nursing and medical schools. And of the two professions, nursing seems to be the one that really doesn't "get it". We defecate on our colleagues with addiction more than any other group. HBO did a great series of documentaries on Addiction. They talked about a Steamfitter's Union who saw the significant problem of substance abuse and addiction in their ranks and decided to do something about it. The union increased dues and used the extra money to establish a fund specifically for addiction treatment. This means that any member requiring treatment gets it...for as long as needed...without using insurance or any other method of payment. And they receive treatment as many times as necessary. Will nurses do this? Of course not. The reponse I've heard when the possibility is discussed is, "Why should we all have to pay extra money for these idiots who do it to themselves." Compassionate and scientifically based...right? Pretty sad when a group of non-medically trained individuals "get it", but health care "professionals" don't. And I put professional in quotes because the scientific data is available, yet very few nurses take the time to read it and gain an understanding of this deadly disease.
Substance abuse and addiction are major, major public health issues. It's estimated that over half of all admissions to trauma center ER's are a result of substance misuse. Depending on the study you look at, 12 - 15% of the general population is dealing with addiction. If any other disease was occurring at that rate, would we ignore it? Of course not. The average age for first use of a mood altering substance has dropped below 12 years of age! Yet we continue to ignore this disease. Sad state of affairs.
Some great reading on the following web site. I highly recommend them.
Addiction Science Forum
Drugs, Brain, and Behavior: The Science of Addiction (National Drug Institute)
The Addicted Brain (Harvard Medical School)
The Addicted Brain (Cambridge Neuroscience)
The Brain: How Drugs Affect Neurotransmitters (The Brain from Top to Bottom)
William White - In Search of the Neurobiology of Addiction Recovery: A Brief Commentary on Science and Stigma
RECOVERY MANAGEMENT: WHAT IF WE REALLY BELIEVED THAT ADDICTION WAS A CHRONIC DISORDER?
If these don't bore you, let me know...I got a million of them!
You did a good thing by intervening. If this gentleman succeeds in achieving recovery, he will thank you! He'll realize you saved his life.
Way to go!!!
Jack

jackstem · Jun 25, 2009

Yeah, what he said.
lol

You are such a trip!!!! ROTFL!! :yeah: :icon_roll

Jack

jackstem · Jun 25, 2009

i actually just got a call. he went into a inpatient treatment program in the houston area. his mom has the kids. wow...thanks for the information. i dont look at it as a personal failure or a flaw. i knew there had to be some kind of chemical / genetic basis for why one person will become addicted and another not. i dont think anyone would "choose" what has happened to him. ...but ...ya know .....even in the ed .....we have never gotten alot of education on it. so....thank you

excellent!! well done my friend!! well done!!

anytime! if i can be of any further assistance just give a shout.

jack