Nurses Call the Governor of Tennessee

Jory, MSN, APRN, CNM · Feb 13, 2019

Just now, HomeBound said:
I guess we will never know, because if there is a confidentiality agreement, the family is effectively silenced from talking of anything they know or feel about the subject.

You don't understand....they don't need a separate agreement. Just because the attorney states the rest is confidential you are assuming there is a confidentiality agreement. There doesn't have to be. "Confidential" can be code for "none of anyone's business".

HomeBound · Feb 13, 2019

Jory, I am not assuming anything.

I read the CMS interview of the Risk Management Director (not an attorney) who said:

"In the end, there were so many things the nurse did - the 5 rights, basic nursing care. I had reached out to the family and they had already obtained an attorney - and the rest is confidential..."

Confidential from CMS? The report goes into ridiculous detail on what happened, who said what, where they were, etc---there was nothing held back save the patient's name, and the nurses' names. What could be so confidential that it's redacted from an official government document?

Oh. A legal agreement that binds the parties from allowing any information to be discussed where the public may have access. Like a confidentiality agreement. After a wrongful death settlement.

Anon is simply speculating. As I said....We will Never Know. Because that information may be sealed.

Jory, MSN, APRN, CNM · Feb 13, 2019

3 minutes ago, HomeBound said:
Jory, I am not assuming anything.
I read the CMS interview of the Risk Management Director (not an attorney) who said:
"In the end, there were so many things the nurse did - the 5 rights, basic nursing care. I had reached out to the family and they had already obtained an attorney - and the rest is confidential..."
Confidential from CMS? The report goes into ridiculous detail on what happened, who said what, where they were, etc---there was nothing held back save the patient's name, and the nurses' names. What could be so confidential that it's redacted from an official government document?
Oh. A legal agreement that binds the parties from allowing any information to be discussed where the public may have access. Like a confidentiality agreement. After a wrongful death settlement.
Anon is simply speculating. As I said....We will Never Know. Because that information may be sealed.

Yeah...you are definitely assuming there is a confidentiality agreement.

A confidentiality agreement, in case you don't know, is a formal contract. There is no mention of a confidentiality agreement.

Confidentiality is also a word to describe something that someone isn't going to disclose to the public.

You are jumping to a ton of conclusions in that paragraph. You have apparently not read very many CMS reports or been involved in assisting an investigation by CMS at a facility. Only factors relating to the incident is public information.

It may seem detailed to you, but it not comprehensive.

HomeBound · Feb 13, 2019

Possible settlement from this case?

Nashville has a report that shows cases and settlements. Unfortunately, unless you have access to their version of LexusNexus, you cannot see the case filing.

It's a curious timing--and the incident happened Christmas Eve 2017. This settlement, quite a large one, happened just two months later.

The CMS report was complete in Nov 2018.

Advanced Practice Columnist / Guide · Feb 13, 2019

2 hours ago, Susie2310 said:
Isn't this what you have said on this thread? That criminal charges should not be brought against a nurse/that you are not in favor of criminal charges being brought against a nurse (even if the criteria for criminal charges is met).

This case is not the only one ever involving a nurse who has committed a medical error that led to death and I'm sure if we dissect each one of those other cases, many will meet criteria for some version of involuntary manslaughter, reckless homicide, etc which I agree is classified as a crime. You also said so yourself in a previous post that many deaths occur in hospital every year due to medication errors.

My point is, we are not prosecuting all of these cases in criminal court. We also don't know the details of each of these cases to even know how they compare to Nurse RV's case. Some are probably even more egregious. You are saying that we must prosecute Nurse RV for the crime she committed, my question is what about those other cases that did not get a spotlight in the media? Prosecuting healthcare professionals who have committed a negligent act resulting in death has not traditionally been held in criminal court for reasons in my opinion that the risk is inherent in our profession.

If Nurse RV's case is the tipping point toward criminal prosecution of medical errors resulting in death, we would be setting our legal system up for more cover up's, more facilities washing their hands off of cases where the culpability is not entirely attributable to a single healthcare professional but a whole system in general. That's what others are referring to as a slippery slope and we have to accept that there are nuances in many of these cases. It's never a black and white matter like you are insisting.

We can only strive to develop systems that could thwart them as a method to prevent these from happening. You are deluded if you think that prosecuting healthcare professional in criminal court will deter these incidents from happening and there's no way you will change my mind about that.

Wuzzie · Feb 14, 2019

3 hours ago, HomeBound said:
The minute we believe we are to be "exclusive" and "closeted" ---only judged by other nurses, held only to "our own law"---the situation is ripe for abuse.

Too late. It’s happening in Ohio. So tell me, all those nurses who gave fatal doses of Fentanyl ordered by a particular doctor. Did they all make a “mistake”?

HomeBound · Feb 14, 2019

Holy Geezus.

Can't come soon enough, IMO. Legal consequences, that is.

Susie2310 · Feb 14, 2019

53 minutes ago, juan de la cruz said:
This case is not the only one ever involving a nurse who has committed a medical error that led to death and I'm sure if we dissect each one of those other cases, many will meet criteria for some version of involuntary manslaughter, reckless homicide, etc which I agree is classified as a crime. You also said so yourself in a previous post that many deaths occur in hospital every year due to medication errors.
My point is, we are not prosecuting all of these cases in criminal court. We also don't know the details of each of these cases to even know how they compare to Nurse RV's case. Some are probably even more egregious. You are saying that we must prosecute Nurse RV for the crime she committed, my question is what about those other cases that did not get a spotlight in the media? Prosecuting healthcare professionals who have committed a negligent act resulting in death has not traditionally been held in criminal court for reasons in my opinion that the risk is inherent in our profession.
If Nurse RV's case is the tipping point toward criminal prosecution of medical errors resulting in death, we would be setting our legal system up for more cover up's, more facilities washing their hands off of cases where the culpability is not entirely attributable to a single healthcare professional but a whole system in general. That's what others are referring to as a slippery slope and we have to accept that there are nuances in many of these cases. It's never a black and white matter like you are insisting.
We can only strive to develop systems that could thwart them as a method to prevent these from happening. You are deluded if you think that prosecuting healthcare professional in criminal court will deter these incidents from happening and there's no way you will change my mind about that.

I believe that if a case meets the criteria for criminal prosecution after an appropriate investigation has taken place that it is not inappropriate that criminal charges are filed. Each case is individual.

Risk is inherent in our profession as it is in other professions where public safety is at risk and where licensed professionals have responsibilities towards the public that include safety.

I have never said that we must prosecute RV for the crime she has committed - please show me where I have used these words on this forum - I bring to your attention again that you are continuing to misquote me, and ask that you stop doing this. If you continue to misquote me I will report your posts. At this point the person in question has been charged with a criminal offense, not been convicted of a criminal offense. Read my posts again - I have said a number of times that where a nurse's actions (or any licensed healthcare professional's actions) meet the criteria for being charged with a criminal offense that is is not inappropriate for that person to face these charges. Yes, in Court. I don't believe that is an intransigent position that signals black and white thinking.

I disagree with you that we will be setting ourselves up for more cover-ups if more cases that meet criteria for criminal prosecution go to Court, and I would say that greater oversight of health care facilities by regulatory agencies is necessary.

Wuzzie · Feb 14, 2019

4 minutes ago, HomeBound said:
Holy Geezus.
Can't come soon enough, IMO. Legal consequences, that is.

But we don’t know if they had intent. Maybe they were really rushed. Maybe staffing was bad. Maybe they didn’t know any better. They were young. They were new. There should have been safeguards in place. Oh, they overrode them well it’s not their fault. Maybe they truly believed they were helping. Any of us could have pushed 2000MCG OF FENTANYL! They probably didn’t know that could kill a patient.

Sorry for the snark, I had a supremely craptastic day today but this is what we’ve come to folks. A whole profession hiding behind our lily-white reputations and feeling like we are above the law even when we violate the most basic of standards.

HomeBound · Feb 14, 2019

{{{Wuzzie}}} no apologies necessary. You're one of the most experienced here---and I hope to God Almighty that if I ever get injured, you come pick me up in your flying machine.

Hope you have a better one. ?

Seaofclouds, BSN, RN · Feb 14, 2019

1 hour ago, HomeBound said:
Possible settlement from this case?
Nashville has a report that shows cases and settlements. Unfortunately, unless you have access to their version of LexusNexus, you cannot see the case filing.
It's a curious timing--and the incident happened Christmas Eve 2017. This settlement, quite a large one, happened just two months later.
The CMS report was complete in Nov 2018.

If you are referring to Case #14C-4972 (4.5 million), it wasn't Vande. Here's the settlement information from that case: http://www.juryverdicts.net/YebuahVerdict.pdf

Wuzzie · Feb 14, 2019

19 minutes ago, HomeBound said:
{{{Wuzzie}}} no apologies necessary. You're one of the most experienced here---and I hope to God Almighty that if I ever get injured, you come pick me up in your flying machine.
Hope you have a better one. ?

Awwww. Thank you for your kind words. I no longer fly but I keep current with my certs (those that I can) and I sure as heck hope I never see any of you in my current line of work. Even the ones who disagree with me. ?