Anyone heard of any NP to MD programs?

Specialties NP

Updated:   Published

A girl I go to school with said that there is a school in Missouri that has a bridge program for NPs to become MDs.

Have any of you heard of a program like this?? :confused:

Thanks!

Kitty

David,

I think if you were to watch this video. You may understand what I am trying to describe. This is a primary care 'scholars' program. The scholar's part being emphasized because that is why it is possible. Emphasized by the speaker. I think once you watch the video you will realize this is far from a guranteed pathway and one could easily find themselves in a 4 year curriculum without ever having the intention of spending 4 years in the school. Only the best are allowed to finish in three years, for the reasons you described.

http://www.mutualgravity.com/dld/ywmjreks/PCSP%20Low%20bandwith.mp4

Interesting. I still think that you would have a hard time forcing someone to pay for something they did not receive after they graduated. They could force you to pay the scholarship back. You could also construct it such that you pay all four years tuition for three years but they defer one year if you adhere to the contract.

This is also different from what they presented at the STFM meeting. This is the first year so they obviously are still playing with it. The other issue is that I doubt that this is aimed at giving credit for people with prior healthcare experience. While the fact that you only pay 2 years tuition (counting the scholarship) is interesting, the opportunity cost doesn't make sense for someone already in primary care. The other thing that you have to remember is that at its fullest expanse this is less than 10% of LECOMs graduates.

Now going back to the thread, what if you designed a program that took experienced NP/PA and did one year of didactic (all that nice embryology and stuff we missed) and one year of clinicals. This would reduce the transition to five years which would be more doable. Not going to happen though.

David Carpenter, PA-C

I couldn't find it on their website. Also just because it can happen doesn't mean that it happens. I have heard of medical students being allowed to skip individual classes if they have expertise in the field.......

David Carpenter, PA-C

i agree about the difficulty in getting residency if you did an oceania degree.... i mean any off shore degree will be difficult in getting you a residency anyway... plus oceania is dodgy... the 3 year program i mentioned is actually happening, with real people in it and has been on for some years. and they have no issues with residencies. it is on their site, but you have to know exactly what you are looking for. for obvious reasons, this program is a bit hush hush because they don't want a lot of people to suddenly abandon nursing and hop over to MD, making the nursing crisis worse than it is...

are you interested in becoming an MD? i notice u post a lot about this topic everywhere... since you r a PA, how is the RN to MD program applicable to you?

i agree about the difficulty in getting residency if you did an oceania degree.... i mean any off shore degree will be difficult in getting you a residency anyway... plus oceania is dodgy... the 3 year program i mentioned is actually happening, with real people in it and has been on for some years. and they have no issues with residencies. it is on their site, but you have to know exactly what you are looking for. for obvious reasons, this program is a bit hush hush because they don't want a lot of people to suddenly abandon nursing and hop over to md, making the nursing crisis worse than it is...

if you are referring to the university of missouri program, without any data on what they are actually doing, it is hard to tell what is actually happening. the school still has to meet acgme guidelines. like i stated just because it can happen doesn't mean it does happen. as far as people hopping over from nursing to md given the numbers of nurses leaving the profession for other reasons, there are probably bigger fish to fry.

are you interested in becoming an md? i notice u post a lot about this topic everywhere... since you r a pa, how is the rn to md program applicable to you?

i personally am not interested in becoming an md. there has been a lot of interest in the pa profession about bridge programs to md. there has always been a small amount of pas that go on to medical school. anectdotally there seems to be an increase in pas that work in the field for a few years and the apply to medical school. the discussion centers around whether programs are selecting the right students for their programs or is this a natural evolution for the profession. the concern is that as the student base grows younger and programs expand we are selecting students that are not committed to the profession.

as far as how a rn to md program is applicable to me, its not. an np to md program however, should look at the same issues as a pa to md program as far as how to value experience and prior classroom knowledge.

david carpenter, pa-c

Specializes in Education, FP, LNC, Forensics, ED, OB.

Thanks, David, for the wealth of information you supply on this topic.

they don't want a lot of people to suddenly abandon nursing and hop over to MD, making the nursing crisis worse than it is...

It always strikes me as odd when people say this and it reminds me of posts in a similar vein...first of all, it is probably only a very small percentage of nurses who a)want to become physicians and b)will actually do what it takes to become one. Second, if a nurse wishes to become a physician, it seems to me that they are wanting to leave bedside nursing whether or not they get into medical school (i.e. they would go to PA or NP school instead). So you really aren't "saving" any nurses for the bedside by throwing up barriers to medical school. Third, it's not the job of the medical schools to alleviate perceived nursing shortages by not accepting RNs. (I'm not saying this actually happens, but there is a perception that some schools will turn you down because you are more "needed" as a nurse). My point is, if an RN wants to be a physician, so what? I can't speak to traditional vs. nontraditional medical schools--I've never researched either kind, so other people can argue whether shortcuts are appropriate. Anyway, just had to get that off my chest.

It always strikes me as odd when people say this and it reminds me of posts in a similar vein...first of all, it is probably only a very small percentage of nurses who a)want to become physicians and b)will actually do what it takes to become one. Second, if a nurse wishes to become a physician, it seems to me that they are wanting to leave bedside nursing whether or not they get into medical school (i.e. they would go to PA or NP school instead). So you really aren't "saving" any nurses for the bedside by throwing up barriers to medical school. Third, it's not the job of the medical schools to alleviate perceived nursing shortages by not accepting RNs. (I'm not saying this actually happens, but there is a perception that some schools will turn you down because you are more "needed" as a nurse). My point is, if an RN wants to be a physician, so what? I can't speak to traditional vs. nontraditional medical schools--I've never researched either kind, so other people can argue whether shortcuts are appropriate. Anyway, just had to get that off my chest.

I completely agree with you. Even if 100% of medical students were RNs the nursing loss would be much less than nurses that leave for other causes. The opportunity cost for RNs is usually positive depending on the local salary. Preventing a nurse (or anyone) from advancement is unlikely to result in the nurse staying in the workforce.

Interestingly the attitude in Britain is different. There are 4 PA programs starting in the UK and there have been PAs there for two years in trial programs. The NHS initially approached nursing and according the the NHS they did not want to participate. My understanding from talking to the physicians is that NPs there function differently than NPs here. I am not sure what the exact differences are but it seems they work more in the traditional CNS role. There are also expanded nursing roles where they can prescribe off a limited formulary. One of the concerns by NHS is that they would exacerbate the nursing shortage there. The target student there is graduates and researchers in biologic sciences and paramedics.

The other issue that you bring up is one that I have been wondering about for some time. We know that nurses working as RNs that go to NP school do one of three things. They either continue working as RNs either part time or full time, go to work as NPs or leave the work force. It is hard to evaluate these numbers but more than 30% of NPs are not working as NPs. The question I have is what happens to DE students? They have the same three choices. The issue is that they potentially have less invested in nursing and in instances that have been seen here have no interest in bedside nursing. In this case if they do not work as NPs they are presumably lost to the workforce. This population is not really tracked but in a nursing shortage if a large portion never work as nurses or NPs is this really the best utilization of nursing education dollars?

David Carpenter, PA-C

It always strikes me as odd when people say this and it reminds me of posts in a similar vein...first of all, it is probably only a very small percentage of nurses... ...

i agree with you, except, in reality, they do select people the way i described. i was on the selection/academic board once and the discussions that went on about RNs becoming MDs were not welcoming at all. most RNs are against RNs going over to MDs and will try to create extra hurdles and obstacles for RNs trying to go to MDs. MDs don't particularly care if an RN comes over. so in reality, the problem doesn't really lie with the medical faculty but with the nursing faculty. there is a dynamic going on, and it's not a simple static thing.

honestly, why would any NP want to become a MD? granted it depends on which state you practice in, but if selected carefully, there are no limits on what your practice can encompass. i see patients, treat, and have NO collaborating or supervising person. ours is a collaborative process which can be via referrals (which I choose to use PRN) and i am very happy in my roles. MD? pah.

and btw no i do NOT use my textbooks any more than any physician/PA/chiro/pharmacists.

You're kidding me?!?! This is going to raise all kinds of hell. The training isn't even close to the same. I suppose once residency is over it doesn't matter but I guarantee the nursing PhDs are going to be looking a whole lot of stuff up during residency if this actually happens.

honestly, why would any NP want to become a MD? granted it depends on which state you practice in, but if selected carefully, there are no limits on what your practice can encompass. i see patients, treat, and have NO collaborating or supervising person. ours is a collaborative process which can be via referrals (which I choose to use PRN) and i am very happy in my roles. MD? pah.

and btw no i do NOT use my textbooks any more than any physician/PA/chiro/pharmacists.

No, I have not heard of an NP to MD program. And why would we want that? We need to remember nursing is not the same as medicine. Nursing is not only a science, but an Art. The care of the patient as a whole being is unique to our profession. Our advocacy is crucial to their wellness. I encourage you to embrace nursing for the powerful changes we make in the lives of all who receive our care.

A DNP program is a nursing clinical focus. A PhD is geared towards scholarship, research, teaching, writing....etc.

A nursing school can not give out the degree of "doctor of medicine" only "doctor of nursing practice" and "doctor of philosophy in nursing science"

Nurses make up the largest healthcare profession, we must stay united and embrace what we do as vital to society. We are just as vital as a medical doctor in the care of patients. I would suggest you sit down and think about what we really do and come up with your own definition of nursing. There are many.

I know so many who revel in the "glamor" that they perceive of medical doctors. My partner is a doctor, and he continues to find people’s perception of doctors as "hilarious." He works very hard treating and diagnosing patients and then leaves the rest to nurses and other professionals. We are a team with a unified goal.

A wise nurse once told our class many years ago, “people come to the hospital for nurses, people can see a doctor in their office or an urgent care.”

But in the end, if you'd rather be a doctor, go for it! Don't try to take a short cut! I don't want a doctor, nor a nurse, whose degree came too quickly.

Jacques, R.N., NP student

Washington, D.C.

You are probably thinking of the DNS or Doctor of Nursing Science program that will give you the title of "Dr." but you will not be an MD or Dr. of medicine. It is more of a clinical doctorate but there is no other way to be an MD than to go to med school.

There is also the DNP which is Dr of Nursing Practice which gives you the title of Dr. But alas if you want MD or DO behind your name, Medical school it is.

I agree with baburton. Our family MD leads anything but a glamorous life. He has a small rural clinic, gets up early to make hospital rounds, sees the same old thing in his office every day, listens to the same old complaints, and gets up the next day to do it all again. Not really a lot of glory in that. He has a wife and a house full of kids to support, drives old vehicles, he can't even afford to hire a full time office nurse. Yes, he is a medical doctor, and he should be admired for the sacrifice and hard work it took to get through it all, but he is just a regular Joe at the end of the day. I personally think the role of NP would offer more benefit than MD.

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