Not allowed to tape nursing lectures

Blueorchid, ASN, RN · Feb 14, 2009

Here is state by state guide.
http://www.rcfp.org/taping/states.html
The entire point of my post, is I am "all about" reading, going to class (I never, ever miss lecture and I show up on time), I don't even mind being tested on material that isn't in the book.
However, I am required to purchase the books. I don't have ESP. Instructors talk about a whole laundry list of things in class and it's hard to tell what is relevant and what isn't.
If it's important, a good instructor will say, "Pay attention, the next bit of material isn't in you text or the notes I gave you."
Am I ok with that? OH YEAH! Because I have been informed that they are not engaging in idle chatter (which some instructors are famous for doing), but what they are saying is pretty relevant.
The instructors I record, don't do this. Once we even had a test question on something that she literally said under her breath and even went on to say, "Not anything you need to worry about"...and bingo, on the test it was.
When I have to deal with that level of incompetence, you don't leave students with a choice. That is what I mean by playing games. I cannot sit there and write everything verbatim.

Goodness!

I'm pretty sure by now you're growing tired of getting the previous posters wagging their finger at you for doing the wrong thing. Which is understandable, I would be as well- you might find it irritating that I add my two cents. However I must admit that while you are not only violating what seems to be a spoken rule, even if you can bring up extensive facts to support your idea, there's a bigger message here.

As a nurse you're going to be an advocate for not only your patient but you're going to have to translate what the doctors, physical therapists, pharmacists, and a whole slew of medical staff are trying to say. You seem to have a very "me against the world" attitude going here which only goes so far. I only say that because nursing is a high stress environment where you really are going to be up against the wall...alot. Are you going to bend the rules then as well? If you're not prepared to grit your teeth and bear down on certain ideas now, you might want to reconsider professions.

Its particularly going to be a problem when you mention the "level of incompetence," you seem to feel the other teachers have. Thats a big nono.

Yes its unfair what they're doing. But those incompetent people somehow got their degrees before you did...so is that really a good word choice? Am I saying you should just give up and fail? Certainly not. I would exhaust plenty of other options though before I went to sneaking in recorded lectures, particularly as other people mention, because you can be caught. Are there students from other classes you could speak to? Perhaps a tutor? Can you talk to the teacher about the questions she asks and state you're having a challenging time learning the information? Plenty of teachers don't record things because they want you to actually go to class this is true, but what happens when you ask them how they would pass their own class? You usually get an interesting response and nine times out of ten it helps.

I just think you might want to take a look back at what you are saying before getting frustrated at the responses. Unfortunately I can't explain it any other way than this so forgive me if I add to the problem. It might seem like people are blowing this up a bit here but it is all in good faith...at least I certainly hope so!

BabyLady, BSN, RN · Feb 14, 2009

Goodness!
I'm pretty sure by now you're growing tired of getting the previous posters wagging their finger at you for doing the wrong thing. Which is understandable, I would be as well- you might find it irritating that I add my two cents. However I must admit that while you are not only violating what seems to be a spoken rule, even if you can bring up extensive facts to support your idea, there's a bigger message here.
As a nurse you're going to be an advocate for not only your patient but you're going to have to translate what the doctors, physical therapists, pharmacists, and a whole slew of medical staff are trying to say. You seem to have a very "me against the world" attitude going here which only goes so far. I only say that because nursing is a high stress environment where you really are going to be up against the wall...alot. Are you going to bend the rules then as well? If you're not prepared to grit your teeth and bear down on certain ideas now, you might want to reconsider professions.
Its particularly going to be a problem when you mention the "level of incompetence," you seem to feel the other teachers have. Thats a big nono.
Yes its unfair what they're doing. But those incompetent people somehow got their degrees before you did...so is that really a good word choice? Am I saying you should just give up and fail? Certainly not. I would exhaust plenty of other options though before I went to sneaking in recorded lectures, particularly as other people mention, because you can be caught. Are there students from other classes you could speak to? Perhaps a tutor? Can you talk to the teacher about the questions she asks and state you're having a challenging time learning the information? Plenty of teachers don't record things because they want you to actually go to class this is true, but what happens when you ask them how they would pass their own class? You usually get an interesting response and nine times out of ten it helps.
I just think you might want to take a look back at what you are saying before getting frustrated at the responses. Unfortunately I can't explain it any other way than this so forgive me if I add to the problem. It might seem like people are blowing this up a bit here but it is all in good faith...at least I certainly hope so!

If you attended my program..you would understand this better. Further details would not be appropriate.

You are confusing an 'attitude' with being passionate about something...there is a big difference...especially when someone posts as to so far as to claim what I am doing is illegal, when it is not.

This is something that I had to resort to, after exausting all options. Some instructors are there to educate. Some are there to collect a paycheck and state retirement...I'll give you one guess where two fall into.

We have some amazingly gifted instructors at my school...not just good, but GIFTED. They have the ability to break enormous amounts of information down to where you can see things more clearly. You can tell that they spend tons of time creating quality lectures, their handouts are always meaningful..so meaningful that you want to keep them in case you find yourself in a teaching situation one day.

With those instructors..I don't even THINK about bringing the recorder...even though with them, it's allowed. I simply, don't need to.

The ones that I do record, it's not a about learning it's about ego. These are the instructors that recycle the same notes year after year, so long that they don't even apply to the text or they contradict each other and if you ask them to explain the difference (even after you can demonstrate that you have read and know the material)...they proceed to embarrass you in class...because that is how they avoid questions. There is a distinct difference...and don't say that there aren't instructors like this because there are.

I'm by no means a spring chicken. I am not on financial aid. I pay dearly for my education. No one is responsible for my learning except for me.

These questions on material that I am missing in lecture but finding on my recordings is the difference between an entire letter grade worth of questions. These are not concepts that they are testing us on, but random statistics and facts that are not emphasized in the text or the book or don't appear at all.

It's nice to know what the "most common cause" of ____disease/condition, but when you have answers on a test of the percentage of the population that has it, when options a, b, c, d have numbers like 98%, 96%, 94%, 92%..you are NEVER going to see an NCLEX question like that.

Blueorchid, ASN, RN · Feb 14, 2009

Perhaps it is your choice of words then I'm mistaking for an attitude that could cause problems later. But wait...isn't that essentially the same thing?

There is a difference between overzealousness and a passion for learning. You really sound like you're trying to find a way around the system instead of working through it. If you perhaps had listed the other options you'd exhausted in the first paragraph that would be one thing. But you mentioned keeping your recorder a secret and yet you place that information on the internet in an age where interviewers check facebook accounts for job applications...Thats a step away from bragging and not a smart idea if you're really going for the secret factor there.

I could go on further about how you're proving the point I made in my first post, but your business is your own, I'll stop there. I certainly hope this doesn't come back to haunt you (or anyone else for that matter though). If you're caught how is that going to affect the students that come after you? Will they be forced to leave all their belongings at the front of the lecture hall? Just a thought. That of course and that the OP gets ideas for how to solve her problem, I won't flood this with a simple argument. Good luck!

suzanne4, RN · Feb 14, 2009

I'm going to disagree with you on that one. You are forgetting a major part of copyright laws.
I'm not as ignorant on this subject as you think.
Lectures by instructors are considered intellectual property and are legally protected. Just like books in the library. Newspapers. Movies. Music.
However...in every library you'll see a copy machine. No library is going to stop you from copying material from multiple Journals, etc. If you purchase music and want to make a copy of it to have in your car if you don't have an MP3 player, 100% legal to do that. Broadcasts on the radio, are also protected....it stays at the end of "shows" periodically that they are...however, it is perfectly legal to record the broadcasts.
What isn't legal...is to distribute them or otherwise "broadcast" the content and some states say an "audience" of ONE is sufficient to warrant a violation.
That is the difference between what I do, and what other posters have done...once you discuss the content, play it for someone else, make copies for your friends....THAT is where the violation comes in.
It can further be broken down if you live in a state that has certain restrictions...mine doesn't. I can even record a phone conversation if I want to...and as long as I am a party to that conversation, I can record it. What I can't do, is set up an electronic system and record one of my neighbor...that is what they will put you in jail for.
As for their "policy"...the syllabus has to be approved by the department Dean for each instructor. All policies regarding the class is supposed to be in the syllabus.
They don't put it in the school handbook, it's not in the program handbook, and it's not in our syllabus. If an instructor wants to make an "official" rule...then they need to put it in writing.

Sorry, but you are most definitely wrong here. And it states in every single library all over the entire country that copyrighted material may not be copied. To do so, you are taking it on for your own liability. And if you take the time to read many books and magazines, etc., it states that it may not be copied in any form accept without written consent of the author or publisher. And guess what, the instructor is the author of what they have written.

And for your information, you may not record a conversation unless the other party is informed of it as well.

------------------------------

At this point in time, what ever you chose to do is your choice, but you are making a very sad mistake when you think that the internet is completely anonymous. It just is not so. And as mentioned above, instructors as well as deans visit this site often. And what makes me very concerned is if you are willing to break the law now, what will you do later on? That is what I find very scary and so do the others here.

And what are you going to do when you something happens at work, if you ever get hired? Change things to suit your needs?

I do hope that you are one of the lucky ones and your instructors are reading here now.

Atheos · Feb 14, 2009

A prepared lecture is not a conversation. Neither is a live performance.

You guys still don't understand US law.

IT IS NOT ILLEGAL TO VIOLATE COPYRIGHT BY COPYING/RECORDING/DOWNLOADING!

Don't believe me???

Fine, example -> Downloading music, copying movies, recording lectures, etc. IS NOT ILLEGAL.

It only becomes illegal if you 'SHARE' the copyrighted material.

Not understanding still???

Try this then. Ever wonder why they prosecute uploaders but only sue downloaders.

BAM...

US Law 101... Learn it... Live it... Love it...

:smokin:

llg, PhD, RN · Feb 14, 2009

Stanley is right ... You can copy things for your private, personal use. That's why libraries provide copy machines. But you can't share them.

However, if a faculty member forbids taping ... then I don't think the general copyright law is the one that is most pertinent. The faculty member has a right to establish the rules of the classroom. And the nursing profession has the right -- and the obligation -- to establish ethical standards for the profession.

suzanne4, RN · Feb 14, 2009

The author and/or publisher still has the final say on how something can be used. And this is the point that we are trying to make.

The instructor still has the right then to not pass you if you do not follow rules that they have set in place. Those are the repercussions that you will have to deal with.

Same way that when you write the NCLEX exam, you must sign an document that you will not copy any of the questions or share them or what was on your exam with anyone even for your personal use. We have seen that done, and there are those that actually lost their NCLEX results and therefore a license because of same.

And the other and final point that I am going to make is that the internet is not as anonymous as you may think.

NeedchangeofPace · Feb 14, 2009

I find it interesting that most of the people posting here, that don't think there is a problem recording lectures after being told it is not allowed and those that support them are in their 20's.

While those who are against it are in their 30's and up:smokin:, with few exceptions.......

I gotta record this thread......... :bugeyes:

Mark

BabyLady, BSN, RN · Feb 14, 2009

and for your information, you may not record a conversation unless the other party is informed of it as well..

suzanne, here is a link that summarizes tape recording laws by state.

if you will take a look, you will find that in most states, notifying the other party is not required.

http://www.rcfp.org/taping/quick.html

i'll use alabama as an example, but if you go by the "state by state" guide, they are all the same.

under alabama law, unlawful eavesdropping, criminal surveillance, and divulging information obtained through these methods are misdemeanors carrying a maximum jail sentence of one year. ala. code 13a-1-2.

the eavesdropping statute criminalizes the use of “any device” to overhear or record communications, whether the eavesdropper is present or not, without the consent of at least one party engaged in the communication. ala. code 13a-11-31. a person also cannot knowingly or recklessly divulge information obtained through illegal eavesdropping. ala. code 13a-11-35.

again, i find it odd that my school, if this is such a huge legal issue and if a student could really get thrown out of school for it...then why no mention of it in the syllabus or the handbooks?

a school (if you go to a public one) is not the same as an employment situation.

suzanne, i have all the respect in the world for you personally...you have done amazing work in your field and on this board. but in all due respect, i think that you are going by what you think is illlegal, versus what really is.

BabyLady, BSN, RN · Feb 14, 2009

The faculty member has a right to establish the rules of the classroom. .

Which is why at our school, any special rules, policies, etc...that deviate from school or program policy, must appear in the course syllabus to be reviewed and approved by the department Dean. If it's not in the course syllabus, then the instructor doesn't have a leg to stand on.

This prevents instructors from crossing the line, not just with rules, but with grading policies, testing policies, assignments, etc.

BabyLady, BSN, RN · Feb 14, 2009

it's also not a violation of copyright laws to make a single copy without the permission of the author under the principle of "fair use", which are exceptions to copyright laws.

the 1961 report of the register of copyrights on the general revision of the u.s. copyright law cites examples of activities that courts have regarded as fair use: "quotation of excerpts in a review or criticism for purposes of illustration or comment; quotation of short passages in a scholarly or technical work, for illustration or clarification of the author's observations; use in a parody of some of the content of the work parodied; summary of an address or article, with brief quotations, in a news report; reproduction by a library of a portion of a work to replace part of a damaged copy; reproduction by a teacher or student of a small part of a work to illustrate a lesson; reproduction of a work in legislative or judicial proceedings or reports; incidental and fortuitous reproduction, in a newsreel or broadcast, of a work located in the scene of an event being reported."

here is another source that explains it in more detail. the general belief that you can't make any copies at all for a non-profit, educational purpose, is a doctrine that went out long ago, yet so many still hold that belief.

http://www.bitlaw.com/copyright/fair_use.html

however, the nclex would be different...the only purpose in copying an nclex question would not be for education, it would be for the purposes of fraud or "how to do better on the test"....that isn't protected.

llg, PhD, RN · Feb 14, 2009

It's time for this thread to stop.