North Shore-LIJ Requires New Nurses to Have BSN

CityKat, BSN, RN · Jul 17, 2010

Me, I'm from the other side of the fence on that issue entirely. I think nursing would benefit from giving up this identity crisis and accept that it is a labor. What is the phobia surrounding being a labor? It won't increase pay, benefits, work conditions..........being called a "profession" won't have any tangible benefits.

Eh, I'm kind of offended by your thoughts on nursing. It IS laboring work, true. I'll give you that. But it's also a profession. I've watched many nurses do things that I've never seen doctors do in my hospital. If doctors deserve to have "profession" behind their titles, why not nurses? Most of the NP's and midwives do close to the same things MD's are doing. Surgery, no. But you see the NP's replacing MD's in many clinics these days. How can you discount this?

foreverLaur · Jul 17, 2010

If you already have a Bachelors, why go backwards and make more work for yourself? Why not just get your MSN instead of taking the longer, more costly route?

RN-BSN is 3 years and full-time and it would be very difficult to do with my full-time job and I would have to take out loans to do so. The ADN program will be entirely free and the hospital I'm going to work at full-time is part of a University so I'll be able to do their ADN-MSN program for free too. If I do a direct entry 3 year MSN program, I may not be able to keep my full-time job and I'll have to take out loans to pay for it. That is also assuming I want to get my MSN (my goal is PA) and I'm very against become a PA or NP without a few years of direct hands on patient care experience first (hence the RN).

eriksoln, BSN, RN · Jul 17, 2010

Eh, I'm kind of offended by your thoughts on nursing. It IS laboring work, true. I'll give you that. But it's also a profession. I've watched many nurses do things that I've never seen doctors do in my hospital. If doctors deserve to have "profession" behind their titles, why not nurses? Most of the NP's and midwives do close to the same things MD's are doing. Surgery, no. But you see the NP's replacing MD's in many clinics these days. How can you discount this?

Oh oh. I see a future major poster in the "Time to call a Duck a Duck" thread.

DoGoodThenGo · Jul 17, 2010

Wagner College is a fantastic program...your misinformed. Theres many PAs, NPs, and RNs in north shore LIJ (the very hospital in question) out of Wagner...if they're so awful they would be hired? Be careful before you bash an entire program...bad nurses can come out of anywhere. No school can train a nurse to be patient, have interpersonal skills, have an even mood and perform well under duress. Passing a bunch of tests and state boards guarantees nothing.

As Daffy Duck would say "pronoun trouble".

It was not I who spoke badly of Wagner's grads, but the nurses one worked with at the time.

IIRC, the conversations centered around the age old debate that BSN grads emerged from school with heads "full of theory" and little or no practical knowledge of the skills required for bedside nursing.

Staten Island being what it was in those days, a rather insular place, most of the nurses one worked with (according to a "cap count"), came out of either CSI (or SICC), and Saint Vinny's.

Have nothing against Wagner's grads, and am sure as you say they make fine nurses. However will point out that the school's board passing rate has remained steady over the past several decades, that is the mid to high 70's. Both CSI and the former St. Vinny's managed middle to high 80's. But as you say passing a bunch of tests and board exams promises nothing.

SunSurfRN · Jul 18, 2010

As Daffy Duck would say "pronoun trouble".
It was not I who spoke badly of Wagner's grads, but the nurses one worked with at the time.
IIRC, the conversations centered around the age old debate that BSN grads emerged from school with heads "full of theory" and little or no practical knowledge of the skills required for bedside nursing.
Staten Island being what it was in those days, a rather insular place, most of the nurses one worked with (according to a "cap count"), came out of either CSI (or SICC), and Saint Vinny's.
Have nothing against Wagner's grads, and am sure as you say they make fine nurses. However will point out that the school's board passing rate has remained steady over the past several decades, that is the mid to high 70's. Both CSI and the former St. Vinny's managed middle to high 80's. But as you say passing a bunch of tests and board exams promises nothing.

The second degree ABSN program produced a 100% pass rate last year...can't speak for the undergrad program @ Wagner. I can envision CSI undergrads passing at higher rates...its a much more rigorous admissions process than Wags.

DoGoodThenGo · Jul 18, 2010

The second degree ABSN program produced a 100% pass rate last year...can't speak for the undergrad program @ Wagner. I can envision CSI undergrads passing at higher rates...its a much more rigorous admissions process than Wags.

It is really only recently CSI's has tightened things up, much the same as the other CUNY nursing programs.

Admission was pretty much the same through the 1980's and early 1990's; long as one made it through pre-nursing with the required 2.5 GPA, and met the other requirements, you applied and depending upon how many others also wanted in a particular class, one could have gotten in with just that minimum GPA. No SATs, no NLN, nadda.

Like many nursing programs, CSI has gone through it's up and downs in terms of board passing rates, but (and again not poking at Wagner), it never was down into the 70's. However there have been major changes in the profession over the past twenty years, and the boards have increased in difficulty once or twice as well.

Methinks part of the focus of CSI, indeed all CUNY nursing programs making things a bit harder to get in is because of the huge numbers of applicants, while also seeking to keep the quality of the program up and a high passing rate. You do this by weeding out (and one hates to put it this way) bottom hanging fruit. Students who even though they managed to make it through pre-nursing probably won't complete the program, or worse won't pass the boards on their first attempt.

According to what one sees in the Staten Island Advance, Wagner only graduates about thirty or less students per year. At least that is want one remembers from reading about their graduation/pinning ceremony. I *think* CSI averages about sixty or so these days.

edlove · Jul 18, 2010

In my opinion the degree does not make the nurse. The ADN program I went to was a lot tougher that the surrounding 4yr programs. Our school also had a higher first time pass rate on the NCLEX. From discussions with BSN nurses, their first semester they were learning the CNA side of nursing, which is something ADN nurses have to have PRIOR to starting the nursing program. Of course I advocate for higher learning, but we all take the exact same nursing boards. Although I only have a 2yr degree, I am constantly improving my nursing knowledge by taking continuing education courses, ACLS, PALS, TNCC and currently studying for the CEN. The desire to be a great nurse and expand nursing knowlege should be what employers are looking for...and not a the degree

Cherish · Jul 18, 2010

In my opinion the degree does not make the nurse. The ADN program I went to was a lot tougher that the surrounding 4yr programs. Our school also had a higher first time pass rate on the NCLEX. From discussions with BSN nurses, their first semester they were learning the CNA side of nursing, which is something ADN nurses have to have PRIOR to starting the nursing program. Of course I advocate for higher learning, but we all take the exact same nursing boards. Although I only have a 2yr degree, I am constantly improving my nursing knowledge by taking continuing education courses, ACLS, PALS, TNCC and currently studying for the CEN. The desire to be a great nurse and expand nursing knowlege should be what employers are looking for...and not a the degree

That would be in your local area. This is not true nationwide as there are many ADN programs that do not require a CNA course. I took a CNA course, Venipuncture (phlebotomy) course and was Combat Lifesaver qualified in the Army which meant I was able to give field dressings, IV's in the field and First Aid and was able to use those skills in Afghanistan. I am in a BSN program and never applied to an ADN program which had waiting list (time is money) but did apply and get accepted to a Diploma program that DID NOT REQUIRE a CNA course in advance. I turned that down to get into my BSN program because I received a scholarship.

Yes our Fundamental of Nursing course, in my sophomore year (we take 3 years of clinical courses at my BSN program), in which the first 5 weeks were located in a nursing home but the last 11 weeks were on the Med Surg floor giving insulin shots, catheters, enemas, meds, etc. So I didn't learn giving shots, giving catheters or passing meds in my CNA course.

I don't find anything wrong with the hospital requiring new grads having a BSN program the hospital can do what they like. I think it's a great incentive that they are providing tuition reimbursement and a 5 year grandfathered in BSN. I can't see any of the ADN or Diploma grad nurses of this hospital quitting and not taking up this opportunity especially if they are receiving a tuition reimbursement or their RN-BSN paid for.

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN · Jul 20, 2010

The degree does not make the nurse..........I have met plenty of over educated idiots in my time. I have 31 years in this profession and how much time I spent sitting in a classroom has NO impact on the kind of nurse I am. All new grads are new grads..........more letters after your name will not make you smarter or more experienced your first day of work. I am still shocked when a new grad tells me that they have never put a foley in or inserted an NG but they went to school for 4 years. Book smart will not give you the common sense to be a good nurse. You know.... there are times I think we aere better off all being educated the same way in the hospital. That way you were promoted on your merits and because you were stellar at being a nurse and honorable in your profession.....not because you decided to spend more time being a student. I resent being told by a new grad with a MSN, who now is my boss because they have a MSN, how to do something by evidence based practice, when they never practiced anything except homework. I have been a nurse a LONG time and resent being told I am less because I don't have the alphabet behind my name. Being questioned in an interview if I have any "ambition" to go to graduate school. Does that mean if I don't go I have no ambition? I happen to have my BSN, I graduated with an ADN and got my BSN later because that hospital paid for it and I could do it at the hospital. HOw did a professor on line make me a better nurse? I didn't..........If they want to make it a requirement to have a BSN from the begining then get rid of all the hospital based schools and ADN programs first. Don't tell an ADN grad she is less of a nurse just because she decided to take care of patients and spent 2 years less in a classroom. Patient ratios improve outcome because you could have a PHd and if you have too many patinets to care for or on your 3rd mandatory OT shift, their outcome will not be good!

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN · Jul 20, 2010

That would be in your local area. This is not true nationwide as there are many ADN programs that do not require a CNA course. I took a CNA course, Venipuncture (phlebotomy) course and was Combat Lifesaver qualified in the Army which meant I was able to give field dressings, IV's in the field and First Aid and was able to use those skills in Afghanistan. I am in a BSN program and never applied to an ADN program which had waiting list (time is money) but did apply and get accepted to a Diploma program that DID NOT REQUIRE a CNA course in advance. I turned that down to get into my BSN program because I received a scholarship.
Yes our Fundamental of Nursing course, in my sophomore year (we take 3 years of clinical courses at my BSN program), in which the first 5 weeks were located in a nursing home but the last 11 weeks were on the Med Surg floor giving insulin shots, catheters, enemas, meds, etc. So I didn't learn giving shots, giving catheters or passing meds in my CNA course.
I don't find anything wrong with the hospital requiring new grads having a BSN program the hospital can do what they like. I think it's a great incentive that they e providing tuition reimbursement and a 5 year grandfathered in BSN. I can't see any of the ADN or Diploma grad nurses of this hospital quitting and not taking up this opportunity especially if they are receiving a tuition reimbursement or their RN-BSN paid for.

As you will find out in this profession........all is never as it seems. Tuition reimbursment is NEVER for more than a mere pittance of the total cost......these days the reimbursment is simply a small gesture of goodwill....an illusion of good intentions.......not a means to make it easier on the nurse to pay for (nurses by the way of pecking order are very low on the totem pole) For me at this juncture of my career........I am working to provide an education for my children........................and I remain a really good nurse!

foreverLaur · Jul 20, 2010

Esme12, I know when I graduate my ADN program, I will be held back because I don't have my BSN although I have a BA in Health Psychology and my local RN-BSN will require ONE online class due to transfer credits (I took a lot of nursing research/informatics type courses in undergrad). Ridiculous!

Artistyc1 · Jul 20, 2010

The degree does not make the nurse..........I have met plenty of over educated idiots in my time. I have 31 years in this profession and how much time I spent sitting in a classroom has NO impact on the kind of nurse I am. All new grads are new grads..........more letters after your name will not make you smarter or more experienced your first day of work. I am still shocked when a new grad tells me that they have never put a foley in or inserted an NG but they went to school for 4 years. Book smart will not give you the common sense to be a good nurse. You know.... there are times I think we aere better off all being educated the same way in the hospital. That way you were promoted on your merits and because you were stellar at being a nurse and honorable in your profession.....not because you decided to spend more time being a student. I resent being told by a new grad with a MSN, who now is my boss because they have a MSN, how to do something by evidence based practice, when they never practiced anything except homework. I have been a nurse a LONG time and resent being told I am less because I don't have the alphabet behind my name. Being questioned in an interview if I have any "ambition" to go to graduate school. Does that mean if I don't go I have no ambition? I happen to have my BSN, I graduated with an ADN and got my BSN later because that hospital paid for it and I could do it at the hospital. HOw did a professor on line make me a better nurse? I didn't..........If they want to make it a requirement to have a BSN from the begining then get rid of all the hospital based schools and ADN programs first. Don't tell an ADN grad she is less of a nurse just because she decided to take care of patients and spent 2 years less in a classroom. Patient ratios improve outcome because you could have a PHd and if you have too many patinets to care for or on your 3rd mandatory OT shift, their outcome will not be good!

The degree may not "make the nurse", but it does generally give a standardized idea of the level of education a grad has achieved. Only in nursing do so many routes lead to the same licensure testing! Just try to explain THAT to a layperson! It would cause a lot less confusion with applicants, facilities, and the public if there were only one basic entry level degree to become an RN.

Sad to say, I hear a lot of "sour grapes" attitudes on this board towards BSN's, as if they cannot possibly know what they are doing, compared to "ABC (fill in the blank) Community College graduates". (which, conveniently, the poster just happens to have graduated from, or knows graduates from.) There will be good and bad graduates from any accredited/approved program of nursing. It cracks me up to hear how much more "difficult your ADN program is compared to the BSN program in the region." How would you even know? If you are having difficulty and have to work hard in your program, perhaps it would be even WORSE in the BSN programs cited.

If it bothers a person so very much, get a BSN, but don't negate the achievements of others. Or, just continue to be satisfied with the level of education you have accomplished, or you will continue to seethe inside. Just my :twocents: