Reading through a bunch of new grad threads resulted in a few common ideas the most important in my opinion is the catch-22 idea that " we want to hire a nurse with experience, but no one is willing to give a new grad their shot at building acute care experience". This has caused a lot of frustrations with new grads trying to land their first gig. I know there are other issues at hand but I chose to focus on this one.
The section "The Hiring Facilities" states that " Recruiting abroad may also be less costly than raising salaries, increasing benefits, and providing other economic incentives needed to retain domestic nurses". This leads me to believe that taking a pay cut as a New Grad RN would be actually beneficial. Before you tear me head off let me explain about my crazy theory.
Let us pretend the domestic RN gets paid $30.00 an hour. Whereas the foreign import gets paid $25.00 an hour. Let us also pretend everything else is equal benefits, experience, skill, professionalism, and so on. In the eyes of HR the edge between the two applicants would be with the foreign nurse. Based on simple cost effectiveness, you get the same work for less. The new grad would be locked out of the position and the foreign nurse would save th hospital a lot of money over time.
The Domestic new grad wont have their shot at building experience because they have been undercut. What about... now are you ready.... the domestic nurse takes a pay cut as well to even out the playing field, remove the edge from their competition. Now don't go off yelling yet give me a second, there is a method to my madness. You take a pay cut to make you more marketable, then you get that position, where you now have the chance to build that ever coveted new grad dream of their first "acute care job". Let us fast forward into the future let us say one year, i know it's not much time but just humor me.
You know apply for a position at another hospital and once again there are those new grads that just recently graduated. Let us also pretend the RNs with 15 years of experience didn't apply. It is you versus the new grads, but now you have an edge, now you have that time spent in acute care learning rather than been unemployed for months at a time. Now you don't have to take a pay cut, you have experience on your side.
Based on the model above does it make sense at all to take that initial hit in order to gain some experience? Or would it be better to apply and spend months unemployed?
I realize the model is simple, just wanted to see how everyone felt before other factors come into play.
Specializes in ED, Telemetry,Hospice, ICU, Supervisor.
The NAFTA agreement has already made it easier to recruit foreign nurses. Chapter 19 adresess medical professionals like RN, OT, PT, RPH. They can come here perhaps with reciprocity from their country ( please correct me if I am wrong). The one thing as medical professionals we had on our side is that you can not move a hospital to a foreign country like a factory. And yes I too believe the language barrier may be problematic. One of the places I worked put their pay scale on an alphabetic coding system so nobody would know what the other is making. In that scenario introduce foreign nurses and it looks like it is a recipe for disaster. Does anybody know of foreign docs who could not pass their test and taking our jobs???
Perhaps the key word to recruit and retaining is the RETAINING! look at the model as a whole. If a nurse can clock out on time the budget will be better for everyone.:) They can go home to their family, :)the floors budget will be preserved, :)errors could be reduced,:) moral will go up and everyone will make a living wage. :)WE can then add to the stimulus of the economy.
Would you want a person with a problematic undertrained staff member care for you??
Can you go in greater detail about retaining nurses and them clocking out on time. I dont understand the correlation. Im still in NS for RN. Thanks alot for the input.
So theoretically if all those visas get taken by foreign RNs that means 20,000 less jobs for Americans nurses looking for a job in these tough economic times. Just my
Holly cow! What Nursing Shortage is that Bill talking about? As for my understanding, there is no Nursing Shortage in US so passing a bill to create 20,000 visas is total bogus. And I was thinking your original post is irrelevant for current situation because my understanding is that govt. stopped recruiting foreign nurses few years ago or alteast I thought so. Let alone foreign nurses, nurses who attend school in US who are foreign nationals cannot work in US for more than a year after they graduate. Things used to be different few years back. But there is a serious cut on opportunities for foreign nurses altogether. So ya I do not know how much of it is true that US citizen nurses are not getting job due to foreign nurses. My 2 cents. Peace.
I wonder... if the foreign imports were coming from Great Britain, Australia, France and other 1st world countries, would it cause such an uproar. Because throughout the message boards (Not necessarily this thread) all i see are Posts targeting Filipino nurses and the like.
i think more care has to be placed in how one words their posts because the sentiment may not be wrong, but the way it comes across may be misconstrued...
Specializes in ED, Telemetry,Hospice, ICU, Supervisor.
I wonder... if the foreign imports were coming from Great Britain, Australia, France and other 1st world countries, would it cause such an uproar. Because throughout the message boards (Not necessarily this thread) all i see are Posts targeting Filipino nurses and the like.
i think more care has to be placed in how one words their posts because the sentiment may not be wrong, but the way it comes across may be misconstrued...[/quote
Just to clarify I am worried about Foreign nurses taking American Nursing positions. I don't care about where you come from, only that your taking a position away from an American. People try to get into this profession by working hard in their programs only to find out that they have no where to go. It is not like there are no Americans willing to take an acute care Rn position. There are tons of new grads every year fighting for a position.
Although I am foreign myself (US educated), I completely understand your point. However, I would like to highlight the point that foreign nurses come to US for work because they can. Meaning US govt. has kept its portal open for such profession citing shortage as a reason. If there are opportunities, people will come. Its a normal way of life. Now keeping current situation in mind where domestic nurses are finding it hard to land a job, we should all question the authority who has hands on passing the Bills like the one you mentioned above. Why do they keep recruiting foreign nurses? Who/what is lobbying for such bills?
That being said, respect to all the nurses no matter which country you belong to!
Specializes in ED, Telemetry,Hospice, ICU, Supervisor.
Although I am foreign myself (US educated), I completely understand your point. However, I would like to highlight the point that foreign nurses come to US for work because they can. Meaning US govt. has kept its portal open for such profession citing shortage as a reason. If there are opportunities, people will come. Its a normal way of life. Now keeping current situation in mind where domestic nurses are finding it hard to land a job, we should all question the authority who has hands on passing the Bills like the one you mentioned above. Why do they keep recruiting foreign nurses? Who/what is lobbying for such bills?
That being said, respect to all the nurses no matter which country you belong to!
You are right instead of looking out for foreign nurses coming in and taking American positions we should deal with the people writing these preposterous legislation. The people propagating the idea of a nursing shortage should be held responsible as well as the people willing to legislate for them. In doing so the visas given to foreign nurses would not even exist in the first place. Deal with the problem not the symptom. Thanks .
I wonder... if the foreign imports were coming from Great Britain, Australia, France and other 1st world countries, would it cause such an uproar. Because throughout the message boards (Not necessarily this thread) all i see are Posts targeting Filipino nurses and the like.
i think more care has to be placed in how one words their posts because the sentiment may not be wrong, but the way it comes across may be misconstrued...[/quote
Just to clarify I am worried about Foreign nurses taking American Nursing positions. I don't care about where you come from, only that your taking a position away from an American. People try to get into this profession by working hard in their programs only to find out that they have no where to go. It is not like there are no Americans willing to take an acute care Rn position. There are tons of new grads every year fighting for a position.
I am a firm believer in looking out for our own.
I am a foreign nurse I came from the UK in 2005-bringing with me I brought 18 years of experience. Since being in your country I have worked hard looking after pt's from all walks of life.
I have educated, trained, supported, sympathised and mentored many students and new grads.
I am a highly trained RN who has witnessed many more mistakes, break in infection control, divertion of drugs, rude abusive RNs and CNA's, nurses who have abandoned their pt's, RN's who have eaten their young, unprofessional conduct, lazy nurses than I ever saw in 18 years in the UK.
I love my co-workers and I am well recieved because I work hard, I have knowledge and experience plus I am always willing to help anybody do anything.
So I am a foreign nurse who does object to statements that foreign nurses are not as highly trained as nurses from the US.
I understand the frustration that American nurses have towards foreign nurses coming along and taking their jobs.
What you have to remember most foreign nurses are coming to the US for a new life!
We just happen to be nurses, we are no different than any other immigrant coming to America-it's what we want to do.
Any foreign/immigrant person coming to the US has to work, so all the immigrants living in the US have taken "American" jobs.
I don't have any issue with singular hiring of foreign nurses. I have a huge problem with the wholesale importing, sight unseen, of foreign nurses from a targeted suppliers.
Hospitals and LTCs that refuse to consider US educated nurses (or you) because you didn't come here as part of this (illustration):
Shipping origination: Phillipines
Manifest: 20 units, model number: A0917RN, to arrive preloaded with all the popular options (so it looks good) but is a less expensive brand.
The company understands that the financial benefit outweighs the risk.
Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.
In my opinion I have always believed that homegrown American nurses are way better than any foreign nurse, just out of sheer pride...4 years service in the ARMY. The majority of you guys are saying no to taking a pay cut in order to land a job to get experience. But just to make it clear for everyone, I do not intend this pay cut to be a permanent deal. I was thinking a way to get your 1 or 2 years of acute care experience before moving on to a different location/position. At which point the New Grad would not have to worry about a lack of experience to get hired.
Since there are so many advantages for corporate to hire Foreign nurses my next question is, where do the unions stand on this whole importing in nurses taking American jobs?
Thanks for the input, it shed alot of light!
Once you start accepting a lower pay it will snowball. This is a slippery downward slope to make us vulnerable to the LOWEST BIDDER!!!
Once the acceptance of lower pay it would be next to impossible to return to an equitable level of pay. Why should we as nurses be forced to accept pay below market value? Do we think so little of ourselves? This is a dangerous precedent to start. The coporations that own hospitals would snach and run with the concept of obtaining the lowest paid for any job.....wait they already are.....imported labor! From a profit margin one can see how this would benefit THE COPORATION....do you want your loved one cared for by the cheapest laborer? Is it true you get what you pay for? According to big business CEO's they do....That's how they try to justify why even when they were going bankrupt...... I THE TAXPAYER BAILED THEM OUT!!!! Yet They still HAD to give HUGE BONUSES to "retain" the best and the brightest!!! (if they were so bright why were you bankrupt?) I don't see any CEO or government offical taking less money or refusing their bonuses because times are tough......to help the little guy out. Yet we are expected to accept whatever terms....just to have a job:mad:
Let's say after a few years and you want to move on. You go to your next employer....fill out an application with your salary information (which is legal to verify). During your interview your future employer asks what you expect to make and it is substantially more than your ending salary. Your future employer asks you....."Why do you think you're worth the pay jump" or "Why was your pay substandard at the other facility." "What have you done to deserve more pay?" or you'll accept the lower pay yet again....because you already accepted low pay once to get a job, so why not again?....or so your new employer will think. Thus the cycle begins.
DISCLAIMER: This is based on my personal knowledge of a Nurses Collective Bargaining Unit and is in no way a statement of all collective bargaining units across the country.
Unions believe in equitable pay and treatment. Collective bargained facilities to do allow the use of outside contractors (agencies) to fill union positions without prior approval. A non-union employee may not fill a Union position unless pre-approved and only on a temporary basis. Salaries are pre-determined and negotiated as a part of the Union contract for a specific peroid of time. All nurses of equitable experience are paid the same amount of money. Senority is "paid" with increased PTO/vacation time off and protection in times of layoffs as well as deference to shift and priority of recievng vacation time as requested. Nurses are encouraged to further their educations and are compensated by increased pay/steps. Benefits include retirement plans and insurance benefits as well as disability protection/policy income. Which are expensive to the facility. When the hospitals use agencies they are not required to provide benefits nor do the need to pay any unemployment/workers comp on these worker that is up to the agency....thus making it cost effective to the hoapital.
Unions are not against foreign nurses. They are against the importation of indentured labor to replace the american worker for much lower pay. These "agencies" send "recruiters" to certain countries to "recruit" nurses to come to the US. They are offered "contracts" and "sponsorship" that "allow" them to come to the US "hassle free". Their fee's are paid by the agency and their VISA's are sponsored by the agency. They must sign contracts that binds them to the agency for a pre-determined amount of time to "work off"(indentured) what they owe in the fee's paid by the agency. They are "placed" in "low cost" agency housing and are guarenteed jobs. They are allowed to be "workers" (indentured laborers) to the agency for a fee. If, at anytime, they do not fullfill the said contract they are immediately deported and their VISA's revoked. These nurses are imported in large quantities through these "agencies".
The agencies contract with facilities for a flat rate. Because the facilites do not have to pay benefits or unemployment/workers comp fees or insurance benefits on these workers.......this makes the cost of the agency import nurses lucrative. The agencies provide workers, the salary given to these workers is barely over minimal wage, but is a huge amount of money compared to where they are from. Many are willing to sign anything just to get here to send money home. The agencies recieve more than their fair share back and reimbursed "lowcost" room and board........Once their contracts are fullfilled (paid back) these nurses are on their own to obtain their VISA...... but are usually not an issue as they are gainfully employed. Simply put.....indentured labor!
Does anyone really think that these 20,000 VISA's are for the casual nurse seeking to come to the US? These VISA's are for the structured importation of workers by large employment coporations and hospitals seeking to lower labor costs.:devil: The "Nursing Shortage" is a lame excuse to import indentured laborers to lower labor costs of the hospitals to increase profit margins. This just goes to show who's running the show. Most of us here are immigrants whose families came to find a better life......so we get it. Many of our families have been processed through Ellis island. Immigration then was srtictly monitored to NOT allow more skilled immigrants in than the US could handle. Many families were rquuired to wait extended peroids of time. How can this country now allow 20,000 nurses in when nurses here can't find jobs. It just irresponsible! I have been and will continue to let my lawmaker know how wrong this is.....even if my efforts are futile....I'll feel better.
Originally Posted by wishiwereanurse
It's funny how foreign nurses become easy target and seen as threat, when somewhere along these boards, foreign nurses are being told that there are no open visas to the US... Somehow y'all know there's a magic portal somewhere in this country where people can just come and take your jobs away...I wish you would share also where this portal is so I can call all my nurse friends so that they can come live and work in the United States...end quote
I don't view foreign nurses as a threat....I just don't think they should be allowed to immigrate to low ball hourly rates undermining and usurping the US citizen who's out of work just because of the lowered socioeconomic status of their countries allow them to work for less here.
It is irresponsible as I said before to approve 20,000 VISA's to import laborers for cheaper labor costs when there are so many nurses unemployed......There is no nursing shortage....at least not right now....the government know's perfectly well there isn't.....they just think it's a good excuse.
That bill better not pass, I know tons of new grads that cant find jobs.
It will pass, corporations will spend millions of $$ to ensure they can hire cheaper Nurses. And we really don't have a say in the matter because we can't seem to stand together and say "Enough!".
From a profit margin one can see how this would benefit THE COPORATION....do you want your loved one cared for by the cheapest laborer?
Is it true you get what you pay for? According to big business CEO's they do....That's how they try to justify why even when they were going bankrupt...... I THE TAXPAYER BAILED THEM OUT!!!! 
Yet They still HAD to give HUGE BONUSES to "retain" the best and the brightest!!! (if they were so bright why were you bankrupt?
) I don't see any CEO or government offical taking less money or refusing their bonuses because times are tough......to help the little guy out. Yet we are expected to accept whatever terms....just to have a job:mad:
kalevra, BSN, RN
530 Posts
Can you go in greater detail about retaining nurses and them clocking out on time. I dont understand the correlation. Im still in NS for RN. Thanks alot for the input.