Never understood nursing

Nurses General Nursing

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I know this is my first post on your forum, and I am a guest here. But I hopefully can get some answers to a problem that has seemed to plague me since I started practicing in medicine. I am hoping that you will be honest enough to tell me why things have gotten to where they are. And by the way, my wife is an EM nurse. That is how we met.

I started in emergency medicine 10 years ago in NY. I spent 10 years prior in EMS, and also did a residency in EM for two years after graduating PA school. I have a fairly decent background. Right out of school, I worked in 4 EDs. One hospital in Brooklyn, on my first day, the charge nurse and two others came up to me and said "You are the new PA, let's get one thing straight, we have 4 year degrees, you have a 4 year degree, you are no better than us. You need labs drawn, x-rays put in, IV started, you do them yourself. It's bad enough we have to do them for the doctors, we are certainly not going to do them for you". They were called into the ED directors office the next day. They brought the union who threatened to have the whole hospital walk out if the director had anything to say to the nurses. Then at another hospital in NY, I had nurses tell me and the docs what procedure they would "allow us" to perform on our patients. They ripped up my prescriptions right in front of me and told me when they would not "allow me" to give out narcotics. In Virginia, large level 1 trauma center, they refused to do UAs on most patients. They didn't feel the test to be important. I had them tell me if my UA was so important, "are your legs broke, why can't you get it from the patient and walk it down to the lab?" They played passive aggressive for years, not giving my cardiac patients nitro or morphine for up to 2 hours consistently, answering "I heard you, put the chart in the rack and I will get to it when I get to it". Of course they refused to allow me access to the Pyxis to get the meds myself. I had them yell at me whe I wrote parameters for Cardazem for BP. They told me I was to assume ALL nurses know parameters and how dare I question their knowledge. They then told me they will question all of my orders for at least one year until I prove myself to them. That seemed to be a reoccurring theme in most ED.

I have war stories that I could go on for at least 10 pages. I have just touched the tip of the iceberg. So after almost 10 years of this and 10 emergency departments, I got to the point that I started to hate nurses in general, and thought that this is what I could expect for the rest of my career. Then of all places, I came to Las Vegas. I asked about the nurses here. I was told the same as all of my other hospitals (no one ever tells you how bad things really are as you would never take on a new position there if you knew). But to my surprise, it has been the best experience I have ever had. They are so nice, so professional. There are no power struggles. We all work together. What a difference when I get up every day to come to work.

So what gives? I have never seen a profession where so many are hateful, unprofessional, uncaring about their responsibilities (patients) and could care less about how little they are performing their jobs. This did not appear to be the minority in any of the places I had previously worked. Have I just had the bad luck to have picked 8 out of 10 of some of the worst places?

It sounds to me as if what you don't understand is the attitude and behavior of certain nurses. It really doesn't have much to do with not understanding nursing.

I think what the OP is trying to get at is why is it tolerated? I know I'm curious.

Specializes in Public Health, DEI.
I think what the OP is trying to get at is why is it tolerated? I know I'm curious.

And what I'm getting at is that it isn't and shouldn't be tolerated by everyone. No one takes advantage of you without your permission.

Specializes in ICU, ER, Hemodialysis.
Specializes in Day Surgery/Infusion/ED.

PACPhD wrote:

By the way, the COO of the hospital, the director of the emergency department and every supervisor in between was an RN. There were no positions of supervision in the hospaital that I knew of that didn't have an RN in place.

How dreadful that nurses were in upper management positions! Someone should definitely put them in their place, like making coffee and standing up when doctors (and PAs) enter the unit.

Specializes in med-surg.

jb2u; sorry for the misunderstanding; of course you're entitled to your opinion, and you were NOT the poster to whom I was referring.

Your experiences are very interesting and I believe it is the culture of an organization that determines whether staff behave "professionally" or not. Just out of curiosity, was the hospital you first described a "Magnet" hospital? Thank you for sharing!

Specializes in Psych.
I know this is my first post on your forum, and I am a guest here. But I hopefully can get some answers to a problem that has seemed to plague me since I started practicing in medicine. I am hoping that you will be honest enough to tell me why things have gotten to where they are. And by the way, my wife is an EM nurse. That is how we met.

I started in emergency medicine 10 years ago in NY. I spent 10 years prior in EMS, and also did a residency in EM for two years after graduating PA school. I have a fairly decent background. Right out of school, I worked in 4 EDs. One hospital in Brooklyn, on my first day, the charge nurse and two others came up to me and said "You are the new PA, let's get one thing straight, we have 4 year degrees, you have a 4 year degree, you are no better than us. You need labs drawn, x-rays put in, IV started, you do them yourself. It's bad enough we have to do them for the doctors, we are certainly not going to do them for you". They were called into the ED directors office the next day. They brought the union who threatened to have the whole hospital walk out if the director had anything to say to the nurses. Then at another hospital in NY, I had nurses tell me and the docs what procedure they would "allow us" to perform on our patients. They ripped up my prescriptions right in front of me and told me when they would not "allow me" to give out narcotics. In Virginia, large level 1 trauma center, they refused to do UAs on most patients. They didn't feel the test to be important. I had them tell me if my UA was so important, "are your legs broke, why can't you get it from the patient and walk it down to the lab?" They played passive aggressive for years, not giving my cardiac patients nitro or morphine for up to 2 hours consistently, answering "I heard you, put the chart in the rack and I will get to it when I get to it". Of course they refused to allow me access to the Pyxis to get the meds myself. I had them yell at me whe I wrote parameters for Cardazem for BP. They told me I was to assume ALL nurses know parameters and how dare I question their knowledge. They then told me they will question all of my orders for at least one year until I prove myself to them. That seemed to be a reoccurring theme in most ED.

I have war stories that I could go on for at least 10 pages. I have just touched the tip of the iceberg. So after almost 10 years of this and 10 emergency departments, I got to the point that I started to hate nurses in general, and thought that this is what I could expect for the rest of my career. Then of all places, I came to Las Vegas. I asked about the nurses here. I was told the same as all of my other hospitals (no one ever tells you how bad things really are as you would never take on a new position there if you knew). But to my surprise, it has been the best experience I have ever had. They are so nice, so professional. There are no power struggles. We all work together. What a difference when I get up every day to come to work.

So what gives? I have never seen a profession where so many are hateful, unprofessional, uncaring about their responsibilities (patients) and could care less about how little they are performing their jobs. This did not appear to be the minority in any of the places I had previously worked. Have I just had the bad luck to have picked 8 out of 10 of some of the worst places?

Yeah, I seriously believe you have just had some really bad luck. But, please don't forget there is a reason some long time nurses are so defensive. Many of the other health care professions truly believe that nurses are uneducated handmaidens and have no problem delegating work to them. And why didn't you get your own UA's? There was a very good chance the nurse had a ton of her own work piled up, a majority of which may have been a stack of paperwork including documentation to justify her job. What were you doing?

Specializes in Psych.
Just as we don't want the OP to assume that all nurses are evil, we shouldn't assume that the OP has a bad personality. I get the argument about statistics, but we don't know him. I have to agree a bit about nurses having this dog-eat-dog culture and being territorial. In fact, it happens amongst nurses too. I worked in corporate America for 7 years before becoming a nurse, and I can say corporate America has treated me better. I have found many older, more experienced nurses treating younger ones poorly. Some are resentful of the newbies, and try to "break them in" instead of taking them under their wing and showing them the ropes - thus nurturing the next generation of nurses.

My theory is that years ago, those nurses were treated poorly - ridiculously low salaries, ridiculously high pt ratios, and old-school doctors treating them like servants. True - I think nurses back in the 70s & 80s were shortchanged. So now are these nurses bitter and jaded, and they cope by taking it out on other new nurses - or PA's, CNA's, med students, etc.? Were they made to feel unworthy, and so now they make themselves feel better by tearing down others?

I've heard of experienced ICU nurses who are bitter that new grads can start there - having the attitude that they didn't "earn the right" to be there. You know what - they are there, so deal with it and help foster a positive envrionment. It's not helping anyone - or the field of nursing in general - to give others a hard time. We're all here to help patients, we're all on the same team. More experienced nurses have a lot of knowledge to share, so instead of being rude to other team members, help us out.

I haven't experienced this from all nurses - many have been helpful and kind. But I have to say that I've seen a bigger collection of "meanies" in the field of nursing than I have in other industries - and as a former consultant, I've worked in many. I even experienced it in nursing school, with many professors threating students and breaking their confidence. So strange - I was very surprised to see this coming from an occupation that relies on compassion.

And I can assure you, I don't have a bad personality. I'm always respectful of other nurses and very appreciative when they help me. You know the saying - nurses eat their young - as well as colleagues with different backgrounds.

Sad, but (in some cases), true.:o

Specializes in Psych.
My apologies for not responding sooner. I work the night shift and just turned myself around and am squinting in the daylight. Where do I start. First, I want to thank many of you for your support. I guess I should try to clarify some of your concerns. First I am not a troll. I honestly want to gain a better insite into those I work closest with in my daily (or should I say nightly) life. I guess you have to understand I work closer with and am with nurses for more hours than my wife. I am truely happy with the current nursing staff, even the "bad apples" are decent to work with. So now some details. 10 hospitals - no, I do not change my jobs as often as my underware.

I started out from school with 4 jobs at the same time. All Per Diem. I wanted the experience. Then moved a few times. THe last place in Virginia I was at for 4 years. It was a horrible working environment. I loved the patient population, the doctors were the best, but (here we go...) the nursing staff was, on an average, where I got the terms "unprofessional, uncaring, etc". This was not directed towards me in general, although as a PA I got a tad bit more cr*p than the docs. There was one nursing supervisor, she was above the charge nurse, who seemed to care about what was going on. I went to her and told her that one nurse refused to place an IV in a patient because she said the patient was a drug seeker and she was not going to take the "risk of a needlestick putting an IV in someone who she didn't feel deserved it". The drug seeker was 26, pregnant, and had sever abdominal pain. The supervisor took her aside and told her in no uncertain terms how inappropriate her behavior was and that she follows a written order or leaves. She spoke to two more nurses in the next week on my behalf for similar unprofessional behavior. The following week, I went to her with again something one of the nurseds refused to do and she said "I am sorry, but apparently the nurses went over my head and told the management I was diciplining them and management told me if I attempt to correct their behavior that my position will be terminated. She left a month later. By the way, the COO of the hospital, the director of the emergency department and every supervisor in between was an RN. There were no positions of supervision in the hospaital that I knew of that didn't have an RN in place.

My other hospitals? At the one where they would rip up my perscriptions, an ER director from a neighbor hospital came over to help out and cover a shift for our director. He had a very sick 2 month old. He called for a transfer and asked the nurse for an LP kit. She said "you aint doin that to the baby". He looked at me and back at her in astonishment and said, "where are the LP kits", She said "maybe you didn't hear me but I said you are not doing that to the baby. You can wait until the transport team gets here and they can do it". He found a kit himself and did what he had to do.

If I had a few hours, I could go on and on. Here is my point. If I ever spoke to a nurse as thay have done to me for years on end, I would be in my director's office explaining why I should be allowed to keep my job. The second time I would not have a job. How have we gotten to the point that power, laziness, "getting back at the providers for all of the years they asked you to get them coffeee and you had to stand when they came into your area" is an acceptable excuse for way they have treated me and my coworkers? That is what I am looking for an explanation of.

And yes, I do belong to a similar PA forum, but this is where the nurses are. And to those of you who feel comfortable thinking that, well, look at the common denominator, Let me tell you about my work habits. I clean up after myself on all my procedures. I am the only provider who has a pyxis number so when the nurse is busy I can get my own meds. I say please when asking for anything. We laugh at work. I ask everyone how their families are. I go out with nurses and their families. And I thank them every single day at the end of the shift for all of their hard work. The have told me I am one of the best clinitian's they have worked with. I do try.

What is an OP?

Yikes!!!!!!!! You HAVE worked w/some nasty ones. It's interesting that all of those management positions were held by RN's. I have often thought that I would like to see more nursing personnel in management where I work b/c they would have a better idea of what the clinical environment is like. Perhaps I was wrong. Did you mention that this particular hospital was a union shop? Or did I get that wrong?:idea:

Specializes in CVICU.

I have read all the posts in this forum and I sit back and ask myself why has the healthcare profession gotten to this point. I am currently in nursing school and I work as a CNA in a hospital. I have been a CNA for six years and I have seen nurses behvave badly , but I have also seen other healthcare professional behave in the same manner including PA's. I think that it is hard for some people believe the things that the OP is saying because they have never experienced them first hand. I have seen healthcare proffesionals act in a manner that is toxic when they are stressed out or overworked. Since I am currently in nursing school I do know personally that some of the girls in my class are going into nursing because they think that they can make good money in it and nothing else. Will these girls make it through school, who knows, but if they do can you imagine the attitudes that they will have in 20 years when they are "senior" nurses and how they will treat people, because they went into a profession that their heart was not in.

I truly think that everything is a power struggle. It is a struggle between the CNA and nurses, between the nurses and doctors, between the nurses and PA etc..... I do believe that in healthcare no one is more important than the next person or holds more power than the next person. We are all there for the same reason, the patient. When you have been in healthcare for a long time you are supposed to use the knowledge that you have picked up over the years to help the ones that are just coming into your world. We need to help nurture them instead of looking down on them because they do not know as much, because at one point and time we were all the new kid on the block. I also think that learning never stops and sometimes we learn things from people that we think we are teaching. :)

While for the majority I have been lucky in my interactions with nurses. Have I seen some toxic ones, yes, but I know that not all nurses are like that. I choose not to focus on the bad interactions, but focus on the positive ones and try to become the best nurse that I can by not being like the toxic nurses. Nursing is not for everyone but unfortunately some do not realize that until they are already working as one and the rest of us suffer.

As far as the OP, I think that his stories may have been extreme cases but not necessarily untrue. Can we say that it is his fault or not his fault, we can't, because we were not there. If he is lying then we should not call him one because we would be giving him the reaction that he intended to get when he posted in the first place. To show him what nursing is all about we need to show him that we stick together and support not only our profession but healthcare as a whole. I think that he has had some bad experiences but those experiences represent only a minority not the majority. Hopefully he will see nursing for what it is at his new job.

PS: Some may say that I have this upbeat attitude becase I am not a nurse yet and have not seen the struggles first hand. But I have seem them up close and personal from working in a hospital and coming from a long line of nurses. I am not naive in thinking that I will not have my bad days because I know I will due to the stress that is associated with the job. One think that is unique about most nurses is that they have the ability to direct that negative energy into something positive for themselves, their co-workers, families and most of all their patients.

As far as the OP, I think that his stories may have been extreme cases but not necessarily untrue. Can we say that it is his fault or not his fault, we can't, because we were not there. If he is lying then we should not call him one because we would be giving him the reaction that he intended to get when he posted in the first place. To show him what nursing is all about we need to show him that we stick together and support not only our profession but healthcare as a whole. I think that he has had some bad experiences but those experiences represent only a minority not the majority. Hopefully he will see nursing for what it is at his new job.

Here are the problems I see: I have never seen a group of nurses refuse to carry out orders at all because they don't like the person issuing the orders. If that truly happened, those nurses NEED to be reported.

Also, I have never seen a group of nurses (note that I said "group", meaning more than one and at the same time) express dislike for someone as soon as the new person starts working. I can see the group deciding a newbie needs to be put in his place, much like how interns are when they disrespect the nurses, but not before the newbie does the disrespecting. I can't help but think that he brought that part on himself.

Specializes in CVICU.
Here are the problems I see: I have never seen a group of nurses refuse to carry out orders at all because they don't like the person issuing the orders. If that truly happened, those nurses NEED to be reported.

Also, I have never seen a group of nurses (note that I said "group", meaning more than one and at the same time) express dislike for someone as soon as the new person starts working. I can see the group deciding a newbie needs to be put in his place, much like how interns are when they disrespect the nurses, but not before the newbie does the disrespecting. I can't help but think that he brought that part on himself.

He might have brought it against himself with something that he did or said but can you say 100% for sure, not one of us was there. So for you to say that he brought it against himeself would be a generalization. I have seen nurses disrespect someone simply because they do not "like" the person for whatever reason. Just because it is something that you have not seen, even with all your years of experience,does not mean it does not exist. I am not saying he is telling the truth because I know all stories have three sides. All I am saying is why attack him since that is what he expects from nurses anyway. Why give him the benefit if he is lying!

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