Need your help - trying to change school policy

gamma3102 · Apr 8, 2009

I apologize if you do not want to hear from a faculty member on this issue, but I personally appreciate the opportunity listen and dialogue with students regarding what I can do as a teacher to become better, so here is my take.

I have worked in nursing education for the past nine years. I graduated from a BSN program (now have my MSN and PhD), worked at a 2 year CC (did LPN and ADN), and a Private Institution (with ADN and BSN) and a 4 year BSN program. At all of these particular institutions, 77 was passing. Math exams were done but not with an increasing scale as have been state before, had to pass the math exams with the same score (passing, and 80 in some cases, 3 times to take) throughout the program. This is what it was when I was there may have changed and during the time I was a student, 70 was passing in my BSN program. At all of these programs I have participated in (not grad level), my assessment is that between 30-50 percent of the class is lost between admission and graduation. This is not a good thing for me as a faculty memeber, and I can only speak for me on this forum. I want to see all students PASS but sometimes students work AGAINST themselves and if I can I want to pass along some of the wisdom gained over the past nine years.

1. I am not one to believe as a faculty member (personal beliefs) that I should tell a student if nursing is for them or not, I will never tell a student, you are not meant to be a nurse, because that is not my role, but what I will do is give them information to make a good decision for them.

2. Teaching/Learning is a contract between STUDENT and TEACHER and I believe it is a 50-50 contract, yes I MUST TEACH!!! (and teaching is the most difficult thing I have ever done) but dang it you must LEARN as well. With learning and teaching comes GREAT RESPONSIBILITY!!! I was fortunate enough to get my MSN in Nursing Education and I hope that helps me to actually be able to teach. But I do find that some students think its all on me and if they fail a test I am the one to blame, yes I do have responsibility for what I did or did not teach and I am one to always accept my responsibility and I try to be fair when evaluating student performance on an exam and in the clinical area but where is your acceptance of responsibility (not all students)?

3. Many students are "not ready" for nursing school. Now, it took me a while to figure this out, for myself as a student, but nursing school is not like other disciplines, so its not memorization and are you as a student looking at your NET score, really looking at it and not just trying to get the number needed for entry into the program. Are you looking at the section on your reading level? are you looking at the section on your stressors? are you looking at the section on your math skills? and WHAT ARE YOU DOING ABOUT IT? I know now that I was not prepared as a student to go to nursing school, but I lucked out and things worked out for me, but I am no different than any other students, I worked HARD to get where I am. I did not get into nursing school on my first try, (it took me 3) and now I know getting in is EASY, staying in and GRADUATING is what is most difficult. I went to a good (college prep) high school, but was not prepared for college in the way I needed to be, so started off making crappy grades. I had no TEST TAKING skills until I finished nursing school, and had no STUDY SKILLS (active skills) until after my Junior level in school.

4. Each student should look at his/her weakness and strength level when going to a nursing program and not be in denial about what YOU NEED help with as a student and seek it out and get what YOU NEED to FINISH!!!, no one will give it to you, you need to walk up and get it for YOU. I think the reason why I passed my boards on the first time is because I studied with my weaknesses in mind. I did not take a Review but studied on my own after making an assessment, diagnosing my weaknesses, putting a study plan together (does this sound familiar?)

5. Yes, we all have "life issues." I worked throughout my program, but YOU need to make good choices for YOU, and if your work schedule is impeeding your progress you need to make a DECISION. One of the best questions I ever got when interviewing for a program was at my PhD interview I was asked, how will you FINANCE your education here? I thought that was a great question because I was like I'm working, I got it and was told, that's not what I mean, what if you can't work because of class or if your grade drops, do you have the financial stability to stay in school? I never tell a student to stop working (I know some of my colleagues do) but you need to make better choices for YOU, (remember you chose this), maybe you need a evening program, maybe you need a part time program (choices).

Finally to get back to your question, I wish you and your classmates well when trying to change policy, I have been fighting the same battles for nine years, a lot of teachers are in denial about what they are supposed to be doing and the lack of their teaching skills (oops did I say that) and don't go out to find the tools they need to be better. But, a BIG BUT... many students are in denial about their skills as well. I think if you are committed to fighting this you should, be respectful and humble when you approach, maybe you want to work with your student reps on the curriculum committee to get a feel for how to approach this effort and know the procedures for getting policies changed at your institution because just bringing in a bunch of this is how it is done other places, won't always get the job done. Its a very tricky to try to get policies changed, tricky and political, so talk to a teacher you trust there and ask them what's the best way to approach the situation.

Good Luck

Sorry for the long post everyone, but had some things on my mind.

NiknLyssaMom · Apr 8, 2009

We lost a girl a week before graduation during finals. That was pretty devastating for her, obviously. But we had the usual 70-75% © passing rate.

Regardless, your school will NOT maintain a 100% pass rate on the NCLEX forever.... no matter how many students take it. Even the best, top students have failed NCLEX on their first attempt because it is just SO different in style - compared to any tests given in school. It is a total and complete different mind set to take NCLEX and no matter how you slice it, some people just don't know what to expect and don't prepare well for it. Not that they're bad students or don't know their stuff....but it is just an out of the ordinary type test. The thing to remember...there is no nursing shortage. There is an EXPERIENCED nurse shortage.....so even after y'all pass NCLEX.....finding a job as a new grad with no experience (licensed or not) will be like trying to find a needle in a haystack. That is the worst pay off after all your hard work in school and studying for NCLEX....no jobs in the end.

Good luck.

QUEBEBRAN · Apr 8, 2009

School requires 80% to pass

meluhn · Apr 8, 2009

I dont see how lowering standards can make your program better. It sounds like you are looking at it from a purely emotional point of view. The fact is that standards have to remain high because of the type of work we do. No other discipline would even be having this conversation. Just because some of your friends may be failing does not mean there is something wrong with the program. Any decent program looses close to 1/2 of the students from start to finish. It is not supposed to be easy. Not being a good test taker is no excuse. If a person gets so anxious about a test that they cant think straight, what are they going to do in a code? Nursing is not a charity degree.

msslim · Apr 9, 2009

I went to a 2yr. ASN Degree College in South Georgia. They require a minimum of 74.5 each semester or you fail and you can only fail 2 times and drop two times during the 5 semester course. After that you can't take the program at that school anymore. We also had a calculation test from the 2nd- 5th semester with a required grade of 100. They gave 3 chances to take it. If you don't make a 100 by then, you fail that whole semester.

steve40 · Apr 9, 2009

I recently graduated from an ADN program in which the college required a solid 80% in order to pass. This was the standard basicaly through all the nursing classes. the over-all sucess rate for graduates that pass the state boards is somewhere around 97% from this particular college. It is for that reason that I believe the required passing percentage for the nursing program is quite adequate.

medicrn16 · Apr 9, 2009

I am part of a transition program (1 year) for LPNs, medics, and RTs. I am a medic. We have to achieve a 78% by the end of the semester to go on. If you fall below that, you are on academic probation which means you get an IEP done by the teacher (Individual Education Plan). We have to pass our med comp with a 100% each semester with 3 tries each. If you fail the first time, mandatory tutoring with drug dosage coach (a doctor on staff). We have clinicals like everyone else and we have to pass with 100% each semester (basically this is achieved with no med errors, not being late, etc.) If you fail an exam, mandatory test review with the instructor. Skills pass with 100% each time, one retake allowed. We also have NCLEX prep with ATI with a mandatory Level II required to pass to the next semester. We are given practice ATI all during the semester to do at home and I find it very beneficial.

Our grading scale is 78-83 ©, 84-89 (B), 90-100 (A). We also have online quizzes and discussions which are pretty easy to pass with a high score, but they ONLY apply to your overall grade if you have a 78% in the class at the end of the semester. So, you can make 100s on those all semester long, but if you don't have a 78 by the end, none of them count. They round only to the nearest 10th, i.e. 77.6 will become a 78; 77.59 will remain a 77%. Our NCLEX pass rate is 98% first try.

For those people who say lowering the standard means worse nurses...who are you to say that only A or B nurses will make good nurses? Do you think this is done in medical school??? If everyone in a program makes A's, the program is too easy. If everyone is making C's or failing, there is something wrong. I am a straight A student and always have been in my ADULT life :bugeyes: As a young person, well, we won't go there! I am now 40 y/o, have a family, work FT, and go to school FT. I have quite a bit about responsibility, and about earning what you put in.

82% is rather high, I believe. But, to the person earlier who said it's all 'relative' is absolutely right. One person's 70% may be another's 80%.

For the person who said she didn't want an RN to take care of her who only knew 82% of the material...really? So it's okay to have an RN who knew 83% of the material? Do you want the RN who knew 100% of the material? Who is that? Is that you? Impressive if it is. You probably won't have an RN to take care of you.

It may not be the passing rate that is the problem. Is there enough support for students? Tutoring? Mandatory reviews? Good teachers? I think it's good what you are doing. I would try not to focus so much on the percentage, but on the whole picture of your program. Good luck!

BeenThereDoneThat74, MSN, RN · Apr 9, 2009

First, I'd like to thank gamma for posting almost exactly whay was on my mind. With particular emphasis on "not being ready for nursing school" and the 50/50 responsibility of students and faculty.

:yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

To the OP: I know you were not looking for things like this, you were looking for stats. I'll give you the details of my school.

Used to be C+ to pass a nursing course (77-79). 2 years ago, our NCLEX rates were dismal, and almost every student who snuck through with a C+ Failed NCLEX on the first try. Our school just revised our curriculum (after over 20 years of it being the same), and raised our pass rate to a B (which is 80-84). Non nursing courses require a C to pass. Our new curriculum studetns have not sat for NCLEX yet, so only time will tell. We last about 10 in the first semester. We let our students retake one nursing course (basically, after you fail 2 nursing courses: either the same one twice, or two different ones) you are out of the program).

Unfortunatley, there is only one objective way to measure students progress/success, and that is exams. This is the way it's been forever, and it is unlikely to change.

Lowering the bar only sets up students for failure in the end.

Pookababy · Apr 9, 2009

Okay, so here's the scoop on my school:

Trinitas School of Nursing, NJ, Co-op program with Union County College, Assoc. in Science with a diploma in registered nursing. An NLN Center of Excellence (the first school ever in NJ, and the only 2 year program in the country).

You must have at least a 2.85 cumulative GPA to be invited to the program, and this GPA must be maintained throughout, with no grade lower than a C+ (75).

100% pass rate on the NCLEX every year. Up until this semester, about 30 students per year would graduate, out of an original 240 students (from the beginning of 5 nursing courses - 1 theory, 4 clinical). This year, we began our last nursing course with the most students ever - 80! We are 3 1/2 weeks from graduation, and still have about 60 students. HOWEVER: We have both a course final that is worth 20% of our final grade, as well as a cumulative exam which covers all 5 semesters of the nursing program that is worth 25% of our final grade. SO if you go into these exams with a borderline grade, or even a low B and fail them, you are at very high risk of failing the course, because SO MUCH rides on these last two exams.

We get ATI exams in our 3rd, 4th, and 5th semesters, which count as part of our overall course grade, so you must do well on them to keep your grade up.

Our course exams are absolute killers! You cannot even utilize "test-taking skills" on them, because the question asked is not the answer they are looking for, and ALL of the answer choices are right, so you really have to know your stuff and be able to play their "mind game".

We just took the NLN pre-NCLEX licensure exam, which was 141 questions, and I flew through it in like 45 minutes flat because it was SO EASY in comparison to the exams I am used to.

There is something to be said for having high standards, but with the nursing shortage, I truly feel that these programs make it almost impossible to make it through school. Instead of exams testing your knowledge about nursing skills, theory, etc..., they are more like IQ tests. In my program, we have lost some incredibly smart, compassionate, dedicated people who would make AMAZING nurses, and yet there are some real dum-dums still in the program - my guess is that they just "get lucky" on the exams, but if you ask them something that they SHOULD DEFINITELY KNOW BY NOW, THEY LOOK AT YOU LIKE YOU HAVE 12 HEADS! It ain't fair, but if there weren't high standards, even more dumb-as-toast people would get through. Personally that thought scares the heck out of me, because there are some really STUPID nurses out there that are a menace to society. I see it every day in clinical... No wonder the exams are so hard - they are trying to protect the public from stupidity and carelessness, and outright negligent nurses who neither care about what they do or what will happen to their patients because of it.

So, in my opinion: The higher the standards, the better. Bring it on! I will take whatever you throw at me and keep on smiling, because I know that in the end when I am walking across that stage to get my diploma, and when I get my license in the mail, and when I walk onto my first nursing job - that I will be the most prepared graduate nurse out there. It may sound snotty or stuck up, but that is just the way it is. My school is hard as he**, but they turn out top-notch nurses.

good luck to all!

oncnursemsn · Apr 9, 2009

I teach at LMH/Regis College School of Nursing- and we are the only NLN Center of Excellence in New England. BTW, there are only 14 colleges/universities in the country that have this designation. Since I've been teaching, we raised our pass score to 78. Final grade

needluck · Apr 9, 2009

Our school required an 80!% avg in every class..no chance to retake class. Only option was to start the program all over again (for LPN in state of PA)

classicdame, MSN, EdD · Apr 9, 2009

pass rates are not as arbitrary as you might think. The school may be required to have a higher rate in order to meet Board or state criteria. I think your energies would be better served trying to keep everyone at a higher rate and concentrating on being a success. You can always go back to this topic after you graduate.