Do you know why teachers get paid so little? The gov't has a monopoly on their salaries.
I've heard several people talk about nationalizing healthcare. S. Gordon plugs the concept at the end of 'Nursing against the Odds'.
But here's the question. And maybe it's selfish. But when every hospital is run by the gov't, don't you think that they'll also 'nationalize' a salary. Do you think that salary is going to be the highest common denominator? Or the lowest?
When EVERY hospital pays 16.50/hr, what will your choices really be? You think that's unrealistic? What is medicare paying DRs? A ton of money - if they take on a ton of pts and don't give any of them the time of day. But if you want to be ethical - dr's make peanuts under medicare.
"I'm sorry but the deficit you know - the only way you can get a raise to 17/hr is if you agree to take 8 pts each. And you have to sign a contract agreeing to this forever. And btw, you are a critical national resource, so you can't strike."
Oh sure ,there'll be regional 'costs of living' but that'll just make it worse if you don't live in NY or LA. Because where do you think they're gonna make that money back in salary 'averaging'? It means NY/LA gets 20/hr while Ark/OK get 14.
Oh, and just like teachers, you'll have to prove your competency. Some 'crat in D.C. won't let you practice unless you pass his 'stump the chump' test.
I was just throwing it out there for comment.
How will nationalizing healthcare effect nurses? Is it something we should really advocate? Or advocate against?
Just an additional bit of info, my daughter was hospitalized for 10 days with pyelonephritis. Cost - zero. Walked out the door and didn't pay a dime for IVs, meds, consults with specialists X4, labwork, diagnostic imaging, etc.
A couple of points about the healthcare and wages in Canada. First, $36 in Canada is roughly equivalent to about $29 here in the states and that is being generous it has been as low as $24-$25. Secondly how much do you pay in taxes in Canada" A whole of alot more than in the states especially for gas. In Canada if they do not have a bed or say a surgeon or anesthesia provider available your surgery gets cancelled and you don't get rescheduled the next day it gets put off until they can fit you in again. The best thing that ever happened in this world was the concept of capitalism. It brings down prices through competition and promotes high quality care due to competition. You want to look at the model for government run ineffecient health care look no further than any VA hospital.
Canada's salaries might be roughly equivalent w/ the U.S. NOW because Canada has to compete w/ the U.S. for nurses. That's partially their own fault by overproducing nurses and forcing them to migrate south in the 80's-early 90's.
Now those nurses know they can go south for a job and Canada has to compete, accordingly.
But you can believe that if the U.S. nationalized healthcare, there won't be enough need for U.S. nurses in Canada for the U.S. to seriously take that into consideration when they set salaries - and salaries will be set accordingly.
And unlike teachers, which are largely paid for and regulated by state gov't, a national healthcare would be a federal deal. One pay rate - nationwide, with minor regional 'cost of living' bumps. And we can't all live in NY/LA to make 18/hr instead of 14 everywhere else.
And someone said teachers make more than nurses? Yeah, right. And my manager makes more than me. Until you figure in OT, and I make 20 grand a year more when that is factored in. And the gov't's simple solution to that mess: put us all on salary and make the OT mandatory.
A couple of points about the healthcare and wages in Canada. First, $36 in Canada is roughly equivalent to about $29 here in the states and that is being generous it has been as low as $24-$25. Secondly how much do you pay in taxes in Canada" A whole of alot more than in the states especially for gas. In Canada if they do not have a bed or say a surgeon or anesthesia provider available your surgery gets cancelled and you don't get rescheduled the next day it gets put off until they can fit you in again. The best thing that ever happened in this world was the concept of capitalism. It brings down prices through competition and promotes high quality care due to competition. You want to look at the model for government run ineffecient health care look no further than any VA hospital.
Taxes in Canada - the more you earn, the more you pay in taxes. Gas prices vary from city to city and province to province. Last time I filled up I paid 82.5 cents a litre. Friday I think the C$ was trading at 87 something US (and I'm too lazy to do the conversion).
Yes, I have seen elective surgeries cancelled due to lack of beds and nursing shortages. NEVER have I seen emergency surgery not performed for any reason.
I have no argument with capitalism....I live in a capitalist country. I am not sure that you need a privatized for-profit system to "promote high quality care". I would worry about corners getting cut in order to make money. By no means is our universal system perfect and I will be first to say that. I would prefer receiving care here in Canada rather than anywhere else in the world.
A couple of points about the healthcare and wages in Canada. First, $36 in Canada is roughly equivalent to about $29 here in the states and that is being generous it has been as low as $24-$25. Secondly how much do you pay in taxes in Canada" A whole of alot more than in the states especially for gas...
I used to think the conversion of dollars mattered, but I find it really doesn't. When you live in theUS, you pay for everything in US dollars, when you live in Canada you pay for everything in Canadian dollars. I'm not really making more because of the conversion. Gas is more expensive, but other things make up for that (like not paying any insurance premiums).
I live in California and take home the same amount as a percentage of my paycheck as I did when I lived in Canada. I was pretty bumbed about that.
I used to think the conversion of dollars mattered, but I find it really doesn't. When you live in theUS, you pay for everything in US dollars, when you live in Canada you pay for everything in Canadian dollars. I'm not really making more because of the conversion. Gas is more expensive, but other things make up for that (like not paying any insurance premiums).
I live in California and take home the same amount as a percentage of my paycheck as I did when I lived in Canada. I was pretty bumbed about that.
Thanks, Fergus for posting that. I just assumed you would make more on average in the US. I appreciate your observations having lived and worked in both the US and Canada.
Canada's salaries might be roughly equivalent w/ the U.S. NOW because Canada has to compete w/ the U.S. for nurses. That's partially their own fault by overproducing nurses and forcing them to migrate south in the 80's-early 90's.
Now those nurses know they can go south for a job and Canada has to compete, accordingly.
But you can believe that if the U.S. nationalized healthcare, there won't be enough need for U.S. nurses in Canada for the U.S. to seriously take that into consideration when they set salaries - and salaries will be set accordingly.
And unlike teachers, which are largely paid for and regulated by state gov't, a national healthcare would be a federal deal. One pay rate - nationwide, with minor regional 'cost of living' bumps. And we can't all live in NY/LA to make 18/hr instead of 14 everywhere else.
And someone said teachers make more than nurses? Yeah, right. And my manager makes more than me. Until you figure in OT, and I make 20 grand a year more when that is factored in. And the gov't's simple solution to that mess: put us all on salary and make the OT mandatory.
~faith,
Timothy.
Timothy, that really has nothing to do with universal health care or not. This is my problem with the term socialized medicine. It implies the government is running everything with an iron fist and it isn't, it's FUNDING everything. Canada doesn't have mandatory OT other than in emergencies thanks to labor laws. By contrast, many US hospitals do. Hospitals don't pay us what they do because they think we'll all move to the US since the vast majority of nurses won't, they pay what they do because they have to compete with different provinces whose unions negotiate better contracts each time (or they can simply quit nursing like MANY nurses do in the US). They pay what they do for the same reason wages in the US increase: supply and demand. Contracts are negotiated just like they are in the US. There is not and never has been a national pay rate. The whole idea of that would be laughable to most Canadian nurses.
People in the US have these wierd notions about Canada sometimes and this is definitely one of them.
Thanks, Fergus for posting that. I just assumed you would make more on average in the US. I appreciate your observations having lived and worked in both the US and Canada.
You also have to consider WHERE in the US you live. You won't meet many other Canadians living in Alabama or Mississippi or Kansas because the pay rates are lower than in BC or Ontario or Alberta. I find the only way to make a ton more money here is to take a non-benefitted position or a travel position.
Nationalized (i.e. Socialized) Healthcare has ben and UTTER DISASTER everywhere it has been tried; right along with socialism/communism.
Why in the world would we want to go that route here? I agree that something needs to be done vis-a-vis our healthcare delivery/payer system, but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
The height of stupidity is doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results.
Timothy, that really has nothing to do with universal health care or not. This is my problem with the term socialized medicine. It implies the government is running everything with an iron fist and it isn't, it's FUNDING everything. Canada doesn't have mandatory OT other than in emergencies thanks to labor laws. By contrast, many US hospitals do. Hospitals don't pay us what they do because they think we'll all move to the US since the vast majority of nurses won't, they pay what they do because they have to compete with different provinces whose unions negotiate better contracts each time (or they can simply quit nursing like MANY nurses do in the US). They pay what they do for the same reason wages in the US increase: supply and demand. Contracts are negotiated just like they are in the US. There is not and never has been a national pay rate. The whole idea of that would be laughable to most Canadian nurses.
People in the US have these wierd notions about Canada sometimes and this is definitely one of them.
But my point is, in Canada, your provinces compete with each other. If tried here, the model is Medicare. And that is national. So, what happens when no regional contracts are allowed?
Because that will happen. 1 gov't agency setting salaries for everybody. (It's how the gov't pays drs now - national reimbursment standards w/ minor regional differences.) And you're right about one thing, the limit to salary setting will be the rate at which a specific salary drives more nurses out of the profession -or prevents them from entering - than acceptable. If anybody, gov't or private, could get away with it, they'd pay us minimum wage. I don't think salaries will fall that much, because there are limits in how low you can go without running everybody off.
But with a monopoly on salaries, you can bet that 'how low can we go' will be tested, again and again.
For those of us that have to feed our kiddos and can't depend on a 2nd salaried spouse to help out if we take a less paying job outside of nursing, or no job at all, that is no boon.
canada's salaries might be roughly equivalent w/ the u.s. now because canada has to compete w/ the u.s. for nurses. that's partially their own fault by overproducing nurses and forcing them to migrate south in the 80's-early 90's....
not entirely due to overproduction. at this time health care costs were exhorbitant. the federal government slashed transfer payments to the provinces, and provinces cut dramatically. health care is a provincial responsibility, not federal! nurses as well as other health care workers lost their jobs and moved not only to the us but to other countries, or changed occupations.
nurses remaining were overworked then (as they are now). so when you are exploring career options, why would you pick a job where you are overworked and underpaid? nursing seats in educational institutions also decreased. when the demand for nurses increased, guess what? limited education available, and long wait lists for seats. add to this older nurses reaching retirement, age of the population increasing, and bingo - nursing shortage.
even if we paid the highest wages we would still have a shortage. there are just not enough nurses in the system now...
i think there are similarities as well as differences between our countries, and i'm not saying that one is better than the other. but from what i can gather it seems that in the us health care seems to be less of a right that a privilege, easy to obtain if you have money and insurance, but difficult to access if you have no money or insurance. i am ducking and i do apologize if i have that wrong, so please, no flames. i would just ask to be educated on this point.
i have heard of people in the us losing their savings, homes, or not going to the doctor when they needed to because they could not afford it. that doesn't happen here. access to health care is taken for granted by us. and that is the biggest advantage i see for our system.
Just an additional bit of info, my daughter was hospitalized for 10 days with pyelonephritis. Cost - zero. Walked out the door and didn't pay a dime for IVs, meds, consults with specialists X4, labwork, diagnostic imaging, etc.
That's wonderful, my family has to pay for private ins it's more than our mortgage.
pugmum
242 Posts
Just an additional bit of info, my daughter was hospitalized for 10 days with pyelonephritis. Cost - zero. Walked out the door and didn't pay a dime for IVs, meds, consults with specialists X4, labwork, diagnostic imaging, etc.