MSN in Psych Nursing or MA in Psych?

romie · Jun 14, 2006

Sometimes the roles of master's prepared clinical psychologists and advance practice MSN prepared mental health nurses overlap. Something to consider:

A nurse with an MSN and training in psychiatric nursing specialty typically sits for a national exam to become an advance practice mental health/ psychiatric nurse and practices nursing in the role of either a Nurse Practitioner or Clinical Nurse Specialist. In many states, advance practice psych RNs prescribe medication. In fact, some clinical psychologists with a Masters degree in psychology actually pursue degrees in MSN Mental Health nursing to gain prescriptive powers.

Another thing to consider is that with RN after your name you will pretty much be guaranteed a job and decent salary for the rest of your life. I am not sure about how good the job market is for clinical psychologists.

CharlieRN · Jun 14, 2006

I too have some concerns about the jobworthiness of masters on psychology. In my area masters level psycholgists can't practice independently. So the MA is just a step onthe road to the PhD. If you aren't going for the doctorate it is not worth doing.

Masters prepared RN's on the other hand function as advanced practice RN's with limited priscriptive powers under the supervision of an MD.

I'm a bit concerned about your lack of enthusiasim for nursing. A masters level nurse is still a nurse. All the extra education is based around the education, licensure and job discription of a registered nurse. A psych nurse at whatever level is a nurse first, not a psych specialist with a slightly different bunch of letters after their name.

Thunderwolf, MSN, RN · Jun 14, 2006

Go for the MSN.

lc3 · Jun 14, 2006

I too have some concerns about the jobworthiness of masters on psychology. In my area masters level psycholgists can't practice independently. So the MA is just a step onthe road to the PhD. If you aren't going for the doctorate it is not worth doing.
Masters prepared RN's on the other hand function as advanced practice RN's with limited priscriptive powers under the supervision of an MD.
I'm a bit concerned about your lack of enthusiasim for nursing. A masters level nurse is still a nurse. All the extra education is based around the education, licensure and job discription of a registered nurse. A psych nurse at whatever level is a nurse first, not a psych specialist with a slightly different bunch of letters after their name.

Thank you for all your responses! I'm not unenthusiasic about being a Nurse. I guess I'm more concerned about not being able to work with the population that I want. I understanding the RN part of it is working in different rotations and I'm concerned that I would not enjoy that part of it. Although, I do understand that is a good way to get experience in different settings. As far as the unpleasant things like bodily fluids, that doesn't bother me. I've worked at a detox center and conducted stool and urine samples, seen vomit and abcesses as deep as bone from IV drug use. I guess I want posibilities and growth in a job and I'm just confused with how to get there.

Trauma Columnist · Jun 15, 2006

Please don't take this the wrong way - I mean it sincerely. At 25 - it might be nice to see other options. I know you enjoy psych and addiction behavior. However, sometimes seeing how everything fits together leads you in a different direction. I would certainly encourage an MSN.

1911guy · Jun 22, 2006

OK a post that caused me to come out of lurking.

First, a little background (i.e. "what can he possibly add to this thread"):

I have a BA in psychology. I planned on being a psychologist, and still might if life allows it. I will be getting an MA in counseling and becoming a LCPC if I don't become a Psy.D. psychologist. I currently work as a "mental health worker" at a local psychiatric hospital. I did consider nursing as a possibility for a short time and looked into my options if I became a psychiatric nurse.

First a warning. I've noticed at my hospital that the nursing staff has a tendency to look down on the therapists and non-nursing/medical staff. Many nurses there give the CNAs with a non-credit/non-college level certificate more respect than the MA, MSW, Psy.D. and Ph.D. level therapists (be they social workers, OTs, psychologists, marriage and family therapists or counselors). One nurse's response to my plan (to get an MA in counseling and being a LCPC to start, and getting my Psy.D. and being a psychologist if I can) was that I should get an AA in nursing so that I can "really help people". Other facilities may not be as bad, but generally it does seem that hospitals don't value non-medical based professionals enough, psych hospitals being only a little better in this regard than medical hospitals.

So, what does this warning mean? Well, if you decide to be a therapist and you want to work in a hospital you have to be aware that you might run into this. On the other hand, if you become a nurse you will see this in your co-workers at times and you have to decide if you can handle that if you have respect for psychologists and other therapists.

As for the MA in psych v. a MSN, I think you need to evaluate what you want to do and what each degree will do for you.

In most states someone with an MA in psych is very limited, with the exception of those with an MA in school psychology (though at the MA level they are usually limited to working in schools). You may be better off with an MA in counseling, or at least tailor your coursework in the psych MA to your state's licensing requirements for counselors or marriage and family therapists.

If you wanted to be a psychologist you shouldn't rule that out even if you are sick of research. After your degree in clinical, school, or counseling psychology you can be a fully licensed psychologist (after a year or two experience) and you need never conduct any more research if you are so inclined. Some Ph.D. programs emphasize research less than others (a good resource for info on programs is: "An Insider's Guide to Graduate Programs in Psychology",

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1572304952/102-9835764-3828928?v=glance&n=283155 ). Also, you may want to seriously consider a Psy.D. program where they really de-emphasize conducting research as it's emphasis is the professional practice of psychology.

As for the MSN, I looked seriously into that and found some advantages and disadvantages.

The advantages:

-In most states a psychiatric nurse practitioner can conduct therapy

-In most states a psychiatric nurse practitioner can have a private practice

-In most states a psychiatric nurse practitioner can precribe meds (usually

under an MD or osteopathic physician's supervision)

-Nurses, especially with an MSN, can move easily into hospital management

The disadvantages:

-If you want to do psych testing nurses cannot (you need to be a counselor or psychologist)

-If you want to run your own independent program, usually this is done by social workers, psychologists, or psychiatrists, not nurses.

-Admission to nursing school at all levels (even many AA programs) is very competetive due to limited numbers of slots so don't expect that it will be that much easier a route of entry than a mildly competetive Ph.D. or Psy.D. program in psychology.

-This is the big one so it will get its own paragraph:

If you have a degree in psych and work/life experiences geared towards admission to grad school in psych you are part of the way there. To get your MSN you will need to essentially start over.

At minimum you will need your RN before you can start. Whatever way you go (AA, BSN, Certificate/Diploma, or accellerated programs for people with a BA) you first need your pre-req courses. If you didn't take courses like Anatomy and Physiology and other pre-nursing courses you may have a year or two of coursework before you can even start a program. Then you have two years of clinicals (one in an accellerated program), and most people find the workload so high that they can't work, at least not full-time, while in clinicals. Then from there you need a year or two experience before most MSN programs will even consider you (though there are a handfull of accellerated MSN programs for people with BAs in other fields where you'll start out in a dual BSN-MSN program). Then you'll be able to start your 1.5-3 year MSN program.

AA or BSN to get your RN to start? I've noticed a few programs where you can do your MSN with an AA in nursing and your RN if you have a BA in another field. However, for maximum flexibility (most programs don't have that option) you need your BSN so this pre-MSN step will likely take you 2-3 years AFTER you finish your pre-nursing coursework.

So, it is very possible that a Psy.D. in clinical psych will take less time. Figure a year at least for pre-nursing courses if you didn't already take them. Two years of clinicals even if you go the AA route. Possibly another year of coursework if you go for your BSN and not your AA. Now we are at 3-4 years when you get your degree/RN. Now you need a couple years work experience before you can even start your MSN program, then about 2 years later you can finish your degree and finally start to do therapy. In a typical Psy.D. program you are done your coursework (essentially) after 4 years and then you start your one year (often paid) internship. So if you aren't already an RN you are looking at 5-6 years before you can conduct therapy (that's even if you get into an MSN program right out of RN school with no experience as a RN, which is unlikely). An MA in counseling or psych+ counseling or marriage and family therapy licensure will run you 2 years of school and a year of work experience for the license (you can work and do therapy without the license, the license is needed for independent work or private practice). A Psy.D. in clinical, counseling, or school psychology will take about 5 years including the internship.

Anyway, good luck whatever route you choose.

romie · Jul 12, 2006

Thanks 1191guy for the cogent explaination. I can see how it could be more timely for some people to pursue the MA in psych. Fortunately in my situation, it worked out that getting the MSN is the most efficacious route. I already have a masters degree and only had a 3 courses to take to meet my nursing pre-recs. I will be entering a direct entry nursing program at UIC. After the first 15 months of full time study, I will be eligible for RN licensure. Then I will be taking masters level nursing course work for the PMH Nurse Practitioner portion of the program. If I go full time, the whole program should take me about 3 1/2 years. I guess that it would probably still be faster to go the MA route, but I really think the MSN in Mental Health Nursing is the holy grail.

Therapist4Chnge · Apr 8, 2007

Great post 1911guy! I figured I'd add my 2 cents also.

First a warning. I've noticed at my hospital that the nursing staff has a tendency to look down on the therapists and non-nursing/medical staff. Many nurses there give the CNAs with a non-credit/non-college level certificate more respect than the MA, MSW, Psy.D. and Ph.D. level therapists (be they social workers, OTs, psychologists, marriage and family therapists or counselors).

It can happen, but you will get that in pretty much any field (MD vs DO, MA/MS vs PhD/PsyD, etc) I've worked in hopsital settings before (I'm on the clin. doc side), and in the majority of instances people were respective of each other's jobs. Many times negatives comments are rooted in misinformation/jealously/threat to job security.

In most states someone with an MA in psych is very limited, with the exception of those with an MA in school psychology (though at the MA level they are usually limited to working in schools). You may be better off with an MA in counseling, or at least tailor your coursework in the psych MA to your state's licensing requirements for counselors or marriage and family therapists.

GREAT advice! Make sure to find out if the MA/MS is licensable, and if so...what your scope of practice would include.

Also, you may want to seriously consider a Psy.D. program where they really de-emphasize conducting research as it's emphasis is the professional practice of psychology.

This is misleading. Though the PsyD is based on a Practioner informed by science, this doesn't mean there is less emphasis on research. Programs range in how much they require the grad student to conduct/focus on research. Research is vitally important to the field, and I'd be VERY wary of any school that doesn't at least require some research because it is very important to understand what the research means....with the best way to understand is to participate in at least some.

As for the MSN, I looked seriously into that and found some advantages and disadvantages.
The advantages:
-In most states a psychiatric nurse practitioner can conduct therapy
-In most states a psychiatric nurse practitioner can precribe meds (usually
under an MD or osteopathic physician's supervision)

The therapy is short term and typically not dealing with the more serious dx's. Some states allow psychologists to prescribe (both independantly and in consultation with an MD/DO...depends on the state)

The disadvantages:
-If you want to do psych testing nurses cannot (you need to be a counselor or psychologist)
-Admission to nursing school at all levels (even many AA programs) is very competetive due to limited numbers of slots so don't expect that it will be that much easier a route of entry than a mildly competetive Ph.D. or Psy.D. program in psychology.

ONLY doctorally licensed clinical psychologists can do psych testing. Licensed school psychologists can also do some testing, typically in educational areas.

As for competitiveness.....there is no comparison. (Legitimate) clinical psychology programs have the lowest acceptance rates out of any doctoral program in the US. The acceptance rates range from 1%-5% for top programs, 6%-9% for the next tier, 10-20% for the rest...which vary in quality. There are lesser programs that may have higher %'s, but they may or may not be accreditted, as good of quality, etc.

In a typical Psy.D. program you are done your coursework (essentially) after 4 years and then you start your one year (often paid) internship.

If you go to a quality program, you should (unless their is a fluke) end up with a paid APA-approved internship. There is some time after the 1-year internship and when you can sit for licensure. Many people choose to do a 1-2 yr post doc....which covered those extra hours, and also allows you to train in a speciality area...such as neuro psych.

-t

Psychaprn · Apr 27, 2007

What on earth is an AA in nursing? AA is Alcoholics Anonmymous!

MrChicagoRN, RN · Apr 28, 2007

I guess I'm more concerned about not being able to work with the population that I want. My passion is working with drug abuse clients and HIV prevention.
I understand the RN part of it is working in different rotations and I'm concerned that I would not enjoy that part of it.

You'll fit in there with an MSN & as a psychiatric nurse practioner.

Actually, as an advance practice nurse, there will be a lot of positions available that won't involve rotations or holidays.

jjjoy, LPN · Sep 13, 2008

Associate of Arts degree = AA

(like BA Bachelor of Arts)