I have been considering joining the Air Force after I graduate with my BSN this December. My step dad was in the AF and I have learned a lot about it over the years; I believe it is a great path to take in terms of nursing because of the opportunities available for travel, promotion, leadership, etc. plus more respect from doctors.
The only thing holding me back in my mind is that I am so opposed to what we are doing in iraq right now. I strongly disagree with a lot of President bush's decisions, and I am afraid this makes me the wrong type of person for the military. I love my country and have always been politically active/opinionated. But I have very little respect for our current administration.
Are you looked down upon in the military if you disagree with the president or oppose the war? I know this might seem like a dumb thing to ask, but i am the kind of person who wants to live my life in an honest way, and if I joined the AF I could not pretend to support this war when I don't. I support the men and women of the military, not the war.
As my last thought on the subject--as it was originally intended to help babygurl with her decision and I, for one, would be proud to serve with her should she decide that way, is this:
Corvette Guy, what you interpret as "hate" is simply dialogue and apparent disagreement. Why characterize it as hate? Perhaps that is one of the problems we have in our national discourse as well. Simply not liking or agreeing with what someone says does not automatically make it hate speech.
And, no, there will be no PM. I have no desire or inclination to "debate" you. Maybe that's the issue. Most of us were having a discussion, no need to turn it into a debate which by definition slots people on opposing sides.
Besides, anything I had to say could be shared publicly. I'm assuming that what you might offer, could not.
Take Care,
Mab
Mab - Wrong, I'm more than happy to share publically a copy-n-paste of the PM I sent you. I was merely wanting to discuss such in private. My intentions are not to debate with you or anyone else, if you mean to use the term "debate" in an offensive manner. Your the one that insist on making sarcastic comments towards me. I certainly don't wish this Thread to get closed. Therefore, I was hoping to give you the opportunity to explain to me why you choose to be so rude to me personally on a more private medium, rather than on this public thread.
Anyway, below is a copy-n-paste of my PM to you.
---
NEVER did I convey any negative comments... merely the facts!
I congratulate you on your recent commission in the AF Reserves. However, before you go around voicing your educationally informed public opinion of ourCommander-in-Chief in a negative manner be advised you might want to seek out your Reserve Unit's staff judge advocate [sJA] ethics counselor. Then, maybe you will seriously take heed to professional restrictions regarding political activity imposed on military officers.
Per the 49th Edition of the Army Officer's Guide, pages 103 & 104, covers specifically the professional restrictions imposed on Army officers regards to political activity;
Article 88, UCMJ; "Any officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, Vice President, Congress, Secretary of defense, or a Secretary of a Department, a Govenor or a legislature of any State, Territory, or other possession of the United States in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct." Therefore, it is appropriate to refrain from public criticism of civilian officials. Public criticism of a government official can be interpreted as a statement with political intent. This applies to public pronouncements, speeches, published letters or editorials, or any other means of expression in a public forum, including public internet message boards.
Military Officers should stay out of politics, and remain apart from political controversy. This is not just my opinion but well established military doctrine. Furthermore, officers must serve the constitutionally legitimate civilian government and, given this duty, should refrain from making public pronouncements of political opinion. This includes political bumper stickers on privately owned vehicles, campaign signs in front of quarters, and the like are public statements, and as such, are inappropriate.
As servants of the republic and defenders of the Constitution, officers have no legitimate reason to officially take sides, apart from thier legally affirmed right to vote and to contact thier representatives in Congress.
Again, the above statements came directly from the 49th edition of the Army Officer's Guide [iSBN 0-8117-2649-5]. So, yes it is most appropriate for a military officer to stay neutral in political matters, whether you like it or not.
I do not support terrorism either. I just don't support the way the president has handled the situation. I think our military deserves better than this.
I agree, he's waiting way too long to go into Iran and Syria. . .
agree, he's waiting way too long to go into Iran and Syria. . .
We're WAYYYYYYY behind schedule here.
~faith,
Timothy.
That's funny. C'mon....
Thanks for the rote remarks from the UCMJ--I appreciate your concern for my well being. I'll accept that in the spirit I hope it was intended.
That being said, if you can actually show me where I was being "sarcastic"(and not factual) and "personally rude to you', then I would be more than happy to apologize.
Again, no hating here--just discussion. Me thinks you may need some tougher armor out there!
...Thanks for the rote remarks from the UCMJ--I appreciate your concern for my well being. I'll accept that in the spirit I hope it was intended.
That being said, if you can actually show me where I was being "sarcastic"(and not factual) and "personally rude to you', then I would be more than happy to apologize.
Again, no hating here--just discussion. Me thinks you may need some tougher armor out there!
Miss Mab - The spirit intended was to set the record straight with facts. Facts that you need to be aware of as a military officer, per Article 88 of the UCMJ.
Examples of your inappropriate comments made to me, in reference to me, directly, or indirectly.
"Most of us were having a discussion, no need to turn it into a debate which by definition slots people on opposing sides." IMHO, I too was included in the discussion. Do you not consider a discussion to have differing viewpoints?
"Besides, anything I had to say could be shared publicly. I'm assuming that what you might offer, could not." Why would you assume such? IMHO, you were just making a snide remark towards me.
"Corvette guy(hee)" What do you mean by (hee)?
"With some military people, just like in the " real" world, there are those that just won't open their eyes to reality and blindly trust in the propoganda thrown at them. (because there were WMD and legions of islamic terrorists in Iraq before the war--don't think so) Oh well, right?" You & I know your comments here were slanderous towards me.
"I have just finished the commissioning process for the AFR and I have no doubts, nor run into any negative opinions in the process---certainly no one telling me I am not "military material" for my educated views. Quite the opposite, in fact." Again, congrats on the commission to the AF Reserves. Nonetheless, I never out & out posted anyone on this Thread was not military material. What I posted was I question whether or not someone with such outspoken political opinions would be able to restrain from doing such as a military officer. Then, I later posted from the 49th Edition of the Army Officer Guide on how officers should remain publically neutral in political matters.
"Again, no hating here--just discussion. Me thinks you may need some tougher armor out there!" Oh, now we are having a discussion. Good, awhile back you posted I was wanting a debate. BTW, the term hate was not meant to be taken literally. I guess you have not heard the of the phrase, why the hate, or don't hate.
Plus, now you want to mock me by using the words I used from an earlier post, "Me thinks". I was using that grammar to lighten up the mood... throw in a little humor. Whatever, I've had Marine Corps Drill Instructors [MCRD San Diego, 1980] bark out far worse than you've ever heard.
"Thanks for the rote remarks from the UCMJ" The word rote is definedas repetition without attention to meaning. First of all, I sited my source numerous times, then explained the meaning behind such.
Looks like the most appropriate thing for me to do is ignore any future post you make, since you refuse to have a civil conversation with me. Furthermore, your comments to a senior officer have been very disrespectful, if not in specific words, then certainly in attitude. I realize no apologies are forthcoming from you. Although, certainly warranted.
I have been considering joining the Air Force after I graduate with my BSN this December. My step dad was in the AF and I have learned a lot about it over the years; I believe it is a great path to take in terms of nursing because of the opportunities available for travel, promotion, leadership, etc. plus more respect from doctors.
The only thing holding me back in my mind is that I am so opposed to what we are doing in iraq right now. I strongly disagree with a lot of President bush's decisions, and I am afraid this makes me the wrong type of person for the military. I love my country and have always been politically active/opinionated. But I have very little respect for our current administration.
Are you looked down upon in the military if you disagree with the president or oppose the war? I know this might seem like a dumb thing to ask, but i am the kind of person who wants to live my life in an honest way, and if I joined the AF I could not pretend to support this war when I don't. I support the men and women of the military, not the war.
I can see where your question is coming from but, I think you're asking the wrong questions. If you are so against the war that you won't be able to serve overseas b/c you don't believe in it, you shouldn't be joining the military. How are you going to feel about weapons training? The mission comes first, whether you agree with it or not, end of discussion. Orders are not negotiable b/c you don't want to be a part of it. By joining, you automatically become a part of it. And it doesn't matter what part of the mililtary you go into, if you are caught bad mouthing the cheif of staff or any officer for that matter, you will be punished. And by vocalizing your opinions, you are not only going to offend some of those that are serving (not b/c they neccessarily are for the war) but, you'll also be bringing down morale, which is a huge part of the military. And simple statements like "we shouldn't even be here" or "this is wrong" do bring down morale.
You should also reevaluate joining if you are doing it just for travel and education. There should be some sort of passion/pride in wanting to be in the military. Past experience on mine and my hubby's part has shown that joining for free education and travel does not make a very good soldier/sailor/marine/airmen. What makes you think you'll go exactly where you want to be?
You may not like George W. or the mission in Iraq, but you will not always agree with policy and procedure or your boss, no matter where you go. Besides, how much longer is his term? Are you going to like the next guy? That shouldn't change your work ethic. You should be asking yourself "If I am in the dessert and I have to nurse a fellow soldier who shot the opposing 'team', will I be able to do that?" If the answer has the slightest hesitation, then you will know if being in the military is for you or not. George Bush should be a small part, and I mean tiny, in your decision to join.
As for the banter below, I didn't read all of it. But, I do hope that there are not military perrsonel on this board bad mouthing the president and his mission. Being out of uniform is not "off duty". If you are active and the clock is ticking, you are on duty. And you never know who may be reading this board.
I can see where your question is coming from but, I think you're asking the wrong questions. If you are so against the war that you won't be able to serve overseas b/c you don't believe in it, you shouldn't be joining the military. How are you going to feel about weapons training? The mission comes first, whether you agree with it or not, end of discussion. Orders are not negotiable b/c you don't want to be a part of it. By joining, you automatically become a part of it. And it doesn't matter what part of the mililtary you go into, if you are caught bad mouthing the cheif of staff or any officer for that matter, you will be punished. And by vocalizing your opinions, you are not only going to offend some of those that are serving (not b/c they neccessarily are for the war) but, you'll also be bringing down morale, which is a huge part of the military. And simple statements like "we shouldn't even be here" or "this is wrong" do bring down morale.
You should also reevaluate joining if you are doing it just for travel and education. There should be some sort of passion/pride in wanting to be in the military. Past experience on mine and my hubby's part has shown that joining for free education and travel does not make a very good soldier/sailor/marine/airmen. What makes you think you'll go exactly where you want to be?
You may not like George W. or the mission in Iraq, but you will not always agree with policy and procedure or your boss, no matter where you go. Besides, how much longer is his term? Are you going to like the next guy? That shouldn't change your work ethic. You should be asking yourself "If I am in the dessert and I have to nurse a fellow soldier who shot the opposing 'team', will I be able to do that?" If the answer has the slightest hesitation, then you will know if being in the military is for you or not. George Bush should be a small part, and I mean tiny, in your decision to join.
As for the banter below, I didn't read all of it. But, I do hope that there are not military perrsonel on this board bad mouthing the president and his mission. Being out of uniform is not "off duty". If you are active and the clock is ticking, you are on duty. And you never know who may be reading this board.
Thank you for that post, it was thoughtful and you brought up some very important issues. And you are definitely right in that you never know who may be watching...
I know you did not read the rest of the posts on the thread, but I encourage you to read to post I have on page 2 (it is rather long) I think that sums up my feelings about everything, based on some of the comments I got back from others on this thread. Thank you for your service!
baby_gurl0604 - After going over all the previous post again this morning I feel that even though you misunderstood me I must apologize.
I never out & out posted on this Thread you were not military material. I certainly don't know you personally, or professionally. Therefore, in no way should make any black & white judgement on your ability to become an officer in the military nurse corps. What I posted was I question [as in concerned with] whether or not someone with such outspoken political opinions [not right, or wrong] would be able to restrain from doing such as a military officer. Then, I later posted from the 49th Edition of the Army Officer Guide on how officers should remain publically neutral in political matters.
BTW, thank you for sending me a PM reply this morning, and have replied to same.
Miss Mab - The spirit intended was to set the record straight with facts. Facts that you need to be aware of as a military officer, per Article 88 of the UCMJ.
Examples of your inappropriate comments made to me, in reference to me, directly, or indirectly.
"Most of us were having a discussion, no need to turn it into a debate which by definition slots people on opposing sides." IMHO, I too was included in the discussion. Do you not consider a discussion to have differing viewpoints?
"Besides, anything I had to say could be shared publicly. I'm assuming that what you might offer, could not." Why would you assume such? IMHO, you were just making a snide remark towards me.
"Corvette guy(hee)" What do you mean by (hee)?
"With some military people, just like in the " real" world, there are those that just won't open their eyes to reality and blindly trust in the propoganda thrown at them. (because there were WMD and legions of islamic terrorists in Iraq before the war--don't think so) Oh well, right?" You & I know your comments here were slanderous towards me.
"I have just finished the commissioning process for the AFR and I have no doubts, nor run into any negative opinions in the process---certainly no one telling me I am not "military material" for my educated views. Quite the opposite, in fact." Again, congrats on the commission to the AF Reserves. Nonetheless, I never out & out posted anyone on this Thread was not military material. What I posted was I question whether or not someone with such outspoken political opinions would be able to restrain from doing such as a military officer. Then, I later posted from the 49th Edition of the Army Officer Guide on how officers should remain publically neutral in political matters.
"Again, no hating here--just discussion. Me thinks you may need some tougher armor out there!" Oh, now we are having a discussion. Good, awhile back you posted I was wanting a debate. BTW, the term hate was not meant to be taken literally. I guess you have not heard the of the phrase, why the hate, or don't hate.
Plus, now you want to mock me by using the words I used from an earlier post, "Me thinks". I was using that grammar to lighten up the mood... throw in a little humor. Whatever, I've had Marine Corps Drill Instructors [MCRD San Diego, 1980] bark out far worse than you've ever heard.
"Thanks for the rote remarks from the UCMJ" The word rote is definedas repetition without attention to meaning. First of all, I sited my source numerous times, then explained the meaning behind such.
Looks like the most appropriate thing for me to do is ignore any future post you make, since you refuse to have a civil conversation with me. Furthermore, your comments to a senior officer have been very disrespectful, if not in specific words, then certainly in attitude. I realize no apologies are forthcoming from you. Although, certainly warranted.
Ok guys, I think it's time to wrap this up. I never meant for this to turn into a debate/fight. I just wanted to get some feedback from military and non-military nurses about how they've dealt with their own political views during this conflicting time. I got a lot of feedback and really appreciate that.
Basically what I got out of this entire discussion is that as an officer, it will be important for me to realize that expressing your political views in the military is different than expressing them in the civilian world. Saying bad things about the president could bring down morale, so you have to think about those around you and how your opinions might affect them. I think that is ultimately something that applies to all aspects of military life. You are not just looking out for yourself any more; you are part of a team and have to have some consideration for the others around you that you may not have previously had.
Even though I respect the importance of restraining yourself from expressing your political views when you are an officer, I believe there is a big difference between keeping quiet about your opinions and choosing to be politically apathetic, as someone suggested in a post early in this discussion. I will always care about what is going on in the leadership of this country and probably always will have strong opinions. I may choose not to express them once i am an officer, but i will always have them.
Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.
Ok, poking my moderator head in here, as a military veteran (10 years' USAF), military spouse and nurse:
Clearly, this war is very controversial and it's obvious we all have varying viewpoints regarding this Administration and its handling of world affairs, diplomacy and politics.
I would only caution those considering entering military service as nurses be very aware of your feelings and be ready to support your Commander-in-Chief, if you do indeed join. This will be your obligation as a military member, regardless of your feelings about the war and Administration. While you are allowed the same freedoms as any private citizen in the USA, and have the right to your opinions, those freedoms will not extend to "badmouthing" your Commander-in-Chief as a member /representative of the armed services, particularly, as an officer in the military. Think long and hard about your reasons for joining the military before you do it; it may NOT be for you.
And, please, let's try to keep the discussion focused on the topic and keep our cool heads while we are at it. We are not all going to agree, clearly, but we can all respect the other point of view and simply disagree.
I am not quick to close threads just because they get "hot", but I would like to see people be able to freely discuss their experiences and feelings here without feeling they will be attacked or derided for doing so.
baby_gurl0604 posted; "Even though I respect the importance of restraining yourself from expressing your political views when you are an officer, I believe there is a big difference between keeping quiet about your opinions and choosing to be politically apathetic, as someone suggested in a post early in this discussion. I will always care about what is going on in the leadership of this country and probably always will have strong opinions. I may choose not to express them once i am an officer, but i will always have them."
Please, let me make this perfectly clear. I never meant to convey the idea that military officers are to be privately politically apathetic. Everyone has the right to their personal opinions. However, as a military officer we should not express our political views on a public platform. Thus, military officers should practice being publically politically agnostic. Actually, I have added the word publically for clarity... yet, I do believe the OP of the phrase intended the same meaning.
Therefore, we both agree... a big difference exist btwn keeping quiet about your political opinions publically and choosing to be privately politically apathetic, true?
Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.
I would also remind those who intend to enter into military service, you are required to raise your right hand swear your support and obedience to all officers appointed over you, including your Commander-in-Chief. If you cannot do this without serious and severe reservations, you should re-consider joining the military. You live under the laws and auspices of the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) which is above and beyond what civilian counterparts are held to. Might want to read the Articles of the UCMJ and see if you can live under and with them.
Corvette Guy
1,505 Posts
Mab - Wrong, I'm more than happy to share publically a copy-n-paste of the PM I sent you. I was merely wanting to discuss such in private. My intentions are not to debate with you or anyone else, if you mean to use the term "debate" in an offensive manner. Your the one that insist on making sarcastic comments towards me. I certainly don't wish this Thread to get closed. Therefore, I was hoping to give you the opportunity to explain to me why you choose to be so rude to me personally on a more private medium, rather than on this public thread.
Anyway, below is a copy-n-paste of my PM to you.
---
NEVER did I convey any negative comments... merely the facts!
I congratulate you on your recent commission in the AF Reserves. However, before you go around voicing your educationally informed public opinion of our Commander-in-Chief in a negative manner be advised you might want to seek out your Reserve Unit's staff judge advocate [sJA] ethics counselor. Then, maybe you will seriously take heed to professional restrictions regarding political activity imposed on military officers.
Per the 49th Edition of the Army Officer's Guide, pages 103 & 104, covers specifically the professional restrictions imposed on Army officers regards to political activity;
Article 88, UCMJ; "Any officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, Vice President, Congress, Secretary of defense, or a Secretary of a Department, a Govenor or a legislature of any State, Territory, or other possession of the United States in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct." Therefore, it is appropriate to refrain from public criticism of civilian officials. Public criticism of a government official can be interpreted as a statement with political intent. This applies to public pronouncements, speeches, published letters or editorials, or any other means of expression in a public forum, including public internet message boards.
Military Officers should stay out of politics, and remain apart from political controversy. This is not just my opinion but well established military doctrine. Furthermore, officers must serve the constitutionally legitimate civilian government and, given this duty, should refrain from making public pronouncements of political opinion. This includes political bumper stickers on privately owned vehicles, campaign signs in front of quarters, and the like are public statements, and as such, are inappropriate.
As servants of the republic and defenders of the Constitution, officers have no legitimate reason to officially take sides, apart from thier legally affirmed right to vote and to contact thier representatives in Congress.
Again, the above statements came directly from the 49th edition of the Army Officer's Guide [iSBN 0-8117-2649-5]. So, yes it is most appropriate for a military officer to stay neutral in political matters, whether you like it or not.
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