Medication Nurse Assistants

Marie_LPN, RN, LPN, RN · Oct 31, 2005

I see a bit of paranoia and a bit of elitism here about the med tech issue. Nurses are not losing their licenses because med techs make mistakes. Med techs have been used sucessfully for decades, so why all the uproar now? The sky is not falling, Chicken Little. How many of those who are so turned off by the thought have even really experienced bad situations? Not many, I am sure. And why is it that nurses think only they can do every aspect of their jobs? What if doctors felt that because of our two or four year degrees, they couldn't trust us to give competent care? (Well, some do think that way, but you catch my drift.)

Elitism? More like legitimate concern for the welfare of all involved. :nono:

Why all the uproar now? Because i'm a nurse now.

Bad situation? Have seen them, not as a nurse, but i saw what happened to the nurse in charge when a med tech screwed up. And i say no thanks to that.

Marie_LPN, RN, LPN, RN · Oct 31, 2005

Notice the population where med techs are used...some of the most vulnerable, undervalued people in society. Coincidence? I think not.

Excellent point!

Marie_LPN, RN, LPN, RN · Oct 31, 2005

Edited for space

Nurses are fearing the worst without good reason. No one ever has anything to say asside from fearing for the patient or their licenses, but have nothing to back it up.
I want to hear a real argument against med techs, not baseless fears. It just hasn't happened yet.

There have been plenty of reasons ("good" is of your opinion) and "real" arguements given, aside from licenses or fearing for the pt.. Life experiences, careeer experiences, and there's no true way to back it up w/o giving too much information (i.e. what area, etc.).

It has happened on here.

Done here.

SmilingBluEyes · Nov 1, 2005

I have seen Med Aides at work when I was a student. Some seemed very good; others were outright dangerous and scary. All of them were giving medications to frail elderly in the SNF and LTC situations. Personally, I saw enough to make me believe there is no role for them in safe delivery of healthcare. I think this practice is no more than a cost-cutting measure for the administrators----not a time or burden-saver for us nurses. I see right through them---and like another pointed out, I see the population upon whom such cost cutting measures have been perpetrated; it's not a mistake. SHAME ON THEM.

The med aides? Not their fault-----They simply did not know what they needed to pass meds, as an RN or LPN would. They do not have education in pharmacology that matches that of nurses---nor do they do assessments as we do. They don't know what they don't know. Simple enough.

Further, they have no license to protect, therefore, they are not as vested as we in making sure our meds match our assessments (which are ongoing and OUR role as nurses---we cannot delegate this to any UAP).

I am out of this one, too. Enjoy the debate, those still around. And the person who said everyone's opinions count, thank you. That is right; all opinions count and to belittle others' opinions adds nothing to the debate nor helps make me understand what it is one is trying to say.

Sbic, I accept your gracious apology, thank you. I just have had enough here. Good night, everyone.

sbic56, BSN, RN · Nov 1, 2005

Sbic, I accept your gracious apology, thank you. I just have had enough here. Good night, everyone.

Thanks for the nice acknowlegement; I meant it. I, too, am so done with this topic!

nurse4theplanet, RN · Nov 1, 2005

Well, I guess I am going to beat the dead horse here, but I just have to put in my two cents...

first off, to sbic56, med aides and UAP's are one in the same...thought I would clear this up, as you seemed to be separating the two in your posts.

I have to say that I respectfully disagree with those who support medication assistants. From personal experience, I went to school in TN for certified medical assistant, which was a nine month program with 240 hrs of clinical time, and was never taught the FIRST thing about meds except the five rights-but I was certified to give injections!!! Then, I simply didn't know what I didn't know....I could have made fatal errors, especially with insulin, because I new only HOW to give, nothing more.

Luckily in my tri-state area, CMAs are NOT allowed to work at hospitals, however, they do work in various family care offices and pediatrician's offices where they are giving meds with the same knowledge base as I started out with. Scary thought.

Our CNAs take VS, give baths, change linens, and assist with eating and up to bath room. They make $9 and have nothing to do with invasive procedures. Usually their training is about 6wks to 8mos...depending on the program.

As for nurses, like was said before...we do not do a 6wk, 4mos, or 8mos course of Pharmacology...many times with pre-req's included, we have 3 or 4 years invested into our degree, with emphasis in Pharmacology, Microbiology, Anatomy & Physiology, Pathophysiology, Drug Toxicity & Polypharmacy, in-depth Assessment, and extensive knowledge of critical lab values, questionable doctors orders, and antidotes for overdoses. Please tell me where you can learn all of this in 4 months because I would love to go there instead of my program!!!:rotfl: It is too easy for a nurse to make mistakes with that amount of knowlege, so less experienced and educated personnel are even more at risk. This is not an attitude of elitism, as I was a medical assistant before and value my CNAs immensley. It is a concern for safety and personal acknowlegement that medication administration is tricky business.

Just because one knows about a drug and can ramble off med action, side effects, and so on does not make them competent to administer meds. Would you let a Pharmacy Rep give you dig, coumadin, or theophylline?! He certainly knows these meds well, but he doesn't have the wider knowledge base to be competent enough to administer these to a pt. safely.

I understand the plight of LTC nurses and the heavy pt to nurse ratio, and I can understand that to some it would be a welcomed solution to being overworked and underpaid. However, I do not endorse the idea and I would refuse to allow a med tech administer meds under my license.:uhoh21:

blueeyedangel · Nov 2, 2005

i have been reading some of your posts regarding med aides and i can understand your apprehension when you believe your license is on the line. i am currently working under a nurse who felt the same way as some of you but now that she has worked with me and the other med aide in our retirement/assistant living boarding home she is learning that once you give someone a chance to assist them in their duties and keep each other informed constantly that we are a great assest. i have no nursing training...i have been a cna for over 27 years and was introduced into this new program in washington state a few years back and i have learned so much. i however do not only pass meds to over 45 residents but i order all their supplies and i complete all the lab forms and do assist with other minor functions in our facility. i learn from my nurses and i have such a great respect for them. i don't know how they do it sometimes. as of now my nurses only administer meds to our 17 person alzheimers unit and to 14 residents on the assistant living side because they have so many other duties to perform and not enough hours in the day to do even that much. they have told us so many times how much they appreciate our service to them and to our residents. i know in our faciltity we all work together as a team...whether we are housekeepers, receptionist, cook...etc...

as for passing my meds and knowing what to do....i keep in constant contact with my nurses concerning all med changes. if a change occours i have been taught what to do and how to do it correctly and i feel confident in myself. i have been fortunate to work with a great staff and even if i don't have a lpn or rn license i don't feel as though i am beneath any who does... i say "all the power" to you nurses out there because with out you us cna's would be no where. i have a wonderful dns who teaches me everyday about respecting me for who i am because with out us they wouldn't know what is going on with individuals they don't get a chance to talk to on a daily basis because of their time consuming duties they have to do locked away behind a nurses station or in offices. we are the eyes and ears as they constantly inform us. i love my nurses and we have such a great relationship and we all know that there are so many different people that help run a home for the elderly and without all of us working together then where would our senior citizens go.....

i may not be a rn or lpn but i do have knowledge...and as they say....."knowledge is power".

p.s. at my facility a nurses that i work under directly is not responsible for my mistakes...only my director of nurses has that problem...and just for the record...so far so good. i have never had a med error as yet and i'm 4 years on the job in the position of med aide . we have had 5 other nurses loose their positons because of their med errors ...so what i'm saying is this...it doesn't matter what title you hold ...we are all just human. every one makes mistakes...even licensed nurses.

blueeyedangel · Nov 3, 2005

The one thing that really upsets me the most is when i hear nurses constantly saying that if "they lose their license they lose their livelihood. Well i'm a cna for over 27 years (because i chose to be) and a med aide for the last 4 years and if i lose MY license i lose my livelihood also because this is the only profession i want to do. I took a big risk myself when i was asked to be a med aide and i thought i like a new challenge so let me look into the program and see if this is the right thing for me. I was properly trained and i continue my training to this day. This is the only thing i know to do in my life...Just because i didn't go to NURSING SCHOOL does not make my LICENSE any less valuable. We are all and should be dedicated to what ever job or career we chose to take and we all should give it are all and no one is better than anyone else....thank you

chadash · Nov 3, 2005

I don't think the question is who is more important or whatnot, I think the concern is what really qualifies an individual to take on the responsibility of passing meds. My concern is that as an nursing assistant I do not believe I have the knowledge base required to do this particular task. My years of experience as a NA have been instructive and rewarding, but in no way have they prepared me to make those kind of determinations. I do not have a license, I have a certification.

sjrn85 · Nov 3, 2005

I did a Google search and looked at the regs. for many states. Not one showed medication assistants as being licensed; many had certification requirements and required registration with the BON.

But certification is not the same as licensure, and ultimately, a medication assistant is practicing under a nurse's license. So while a med. aide may be very conscientious, the ultimate responsibility for that aide's actions lies with the licensed nurse.

nurse4theplanet, RN · Nov 3, 2005

I don't think CNAs or Med Assistants are inferior or do not have the same apptitude to learn as LPN & RN students. And certainly, there are those who have been in the feild longer than I have been alive...experience is the greatest form of education. However, there are too many variables involved. There is no standard set for education among CNAs/MAs across the nation. As has been posted here, some had a few weeks training, some a few months...some have great nursing mentors that follow up behind them and give instruction/advice, some are on there own. I admire those who have taken it upon themselves to learn what they should be responsible for when administering medication, but for safety reasons, I think Med admin should be left to the nurses who have been thoroughly trained in assessment.

And to add one more point, I do believe that an LPN/RN should be given the right to delegate the admin of certain meds to UAP, but it should be the nurses responsibility to choose who they feel are responsible, explain what to check before admin (B/P, apical pulse, BUN, F&E status, bowel habits, whatever the case may be), and then teach s/sx of complications to report. At our facility, we are not allowed to do this. It does put a strain on the nurses, and treats the CNAs like they are inferior, when they are not.

Oh, and we recently had a big stink that really upset me. In a certain LTC facility, some really ignorant CNAs decided they would get back at the nurses they didn't like by loading the residents up with laxatives. One resident nearly died from F&E imbalance...she went into cardiac arrest. Needless to say those two morons are in jail awaiting trial right now...but they literally had no idea that a laxative could cause such a fatal complication. They never received the training. Now, I don't want any CNAs to get upset at this statement...for most PEOPLE medical or not...this is just common sense! But these two were really a duo :eek: :nono: :madface: I don't know where they received their training but I would hate to think what kind of damage they could have done if they were giving insulin, potassium, diuretics, or blood pressure meds! You always have the bad apples in every bunch

blueeyedangel · Nov 3, 2005

I don't know where you are getting your info...but I DO have a license that i pay for every year not as a med aide...but as a CNA... and if i lose my license i can not work anywhere again in either capacity. So there fore my license is important to me. I also checked into the state regs and i talked to a state survey person and was told that my DIRECTOR OF NURSES is the one who is responsible not my charge nurse. I'm not saying that i think all med aides should pass meds in all facilities...there is so much i don't know and i take my hat off to all nurses but please don't make it sound as though just because i don't have a Nursing license i am lower class....