MD to RN?

[jackshepard]

Hi all.

New user here. I apologize if this is in the wrong subsection. Mods, please move as needed.

I'll get straight to the point.

I am a recent US MD graduate. Did not get into residency. Major reasons were beyond my control. But with the continued trend of having more US grads competing with a stagnant number of residency spots, my story is hardly unique.

Anyway, I passed Step 1 and both parts of Step 2, which were required for graduation. I have worked alongside nurses and have a great appreciation for what they do. I thought about going the RN route prior to embarking on the MD adventure.

I understand that becoming an RN will take more schooling. I am certain I can handle it as well as any other person transitioning from a different career into nursing. And the loans required don't scare me. I bet I have more than 99 % of RN students!

What are your thoughts about this? Have you all run into MD to RN folks?

Will my MD background be an asset or liability when it comes to applying for RN schools or RN jobs post-school?

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

[KatieMI, BSN, MSN, RN]

I think a lot of people here don't understand residency matching.

1.The longer you are out school, your chance for matching drops significantly.

2. Lots of US MDs do not match for whatever reason, not a new issue with dwindling residency slots

3. MDs without residency are essentially useless. Not that they aren't smart or bright but any research, volunteer or teaching job WILL require a residency.

4. Applying and interviewing to residencies is very expensive, you can't just shot-gun apply everywhere.

Yep, and this is not all yet:

1+. Programs always interview approximately 10 -15 people for ONE ranking spot. So, one needs at least 10 interviews to be more or less sure to be matched somewhere. That, accordingly, means travel to at least 10 spots. It is a very expensive vacation unless one lives in like NY/NJ with high concentration of programs.

2+. Number of residency spots are fixed because they are paid from Medicare. Counting the condition of Medicare funds, this number is highly unlikely to increase any time soon. The number of American traditional medical grads is increasing, and this is not counting DOs, Carrabean school grads (private schools situated mostly in Dominica and such places, associated with US hospitals where their students do clinicals), and international grads. They all compete for the same pie. DOs have a few programs of their own but overall the picture is like above.

3+. Quite few programs prefer to interview certain grads (usually US) but rank and match others (usually foreigners). These are mostly ones situated only God knows where, low prestige (meaning poor job prospectives after them) and/or low quality and terrible job conditions. They know that no American will stay there for long, so they do not match them.

[RiskManager]

New laws to ease doctor shortage see long delays, criticism - seattlepi.com

An article about the Missouri program.

[LPNtoRNin2016OH, LPN]

I wonder what exactly "Russian personality" and especially "Russian accent" had to do with the lack of correct communication skills appropriate for this particular situation (which skills, BTW, none of you took the trouble to explain to your colleague beforeheand) and why, knowing about all that, none of you and none of your management as well bothered to intervene before the things heated up.

Oh please, its not unusual for other cultures to approach death differently that the US. And I said Russian accent because well she had an Russian accent which made for a difficult language barrier for her to understand Americans are not so matter of fact about death as her culture was. I was an STNA at the time, it wasn't my place to counsel someone considered my superior.

[vandiola]

OP, I think it would be worth exhausting all other options before turning to nursing. From reading your posts, it looks like you're going for nursing because you weren't able to get onto a residency. Would it be worth considering going to another country to do your post grad training? I think you can do foundation years (equivalent to residency) in the UK with a work permit

[Postpartum RN]

OP, I know you are facing a lot of challenges, and many of them I don't understand as it seems complicated, however please read this advice. I do not think you will be happy working as an RN, at the bedside, if you went to medical school and are an MD. You sound very bright. You will get bored with nursing, it will restrict you. You cannot diagnose, give orders etc as an RN. You will be doing a lot of bedside care, ie cleaning vomit, stool, blood, urine, all sorts of stuff. I think you will begin hating your RN job. Many RNs are not respected at all, we are the grunt workers and all the other staff in the hospital can defer anything to "the patients RN". Doctors are more respected and regarded.

Also, you may be tempted so suggest treatments or courses of actions etc to your patients doctors, and if those doctors find out you went to medical school but now are an RN, I don't think they will respect you and will probably give you a hard time. Just some things to think about.

Good luck, I hope you don't give up.

[jackshepard]

OP, I know you are facing a lot of challenges, and many of them I don't understand as it seems complicated, however please read this advice. I do not think you will be happy working as an RN, at the bedside, if you went to medical school and are an MD. You sound very bright. You will get bored with nursing, it will restrict you. You cannot diagnose, give orders etc as an RN. You will be doing a lot of bedside care, ie cleaning vomit, stool, blood, urine, all sorts of stuff. I think you will begin hating your RN job. Many RNs are not respected at all, we are the grunt workers and all the other staff in the hospital can defer anything to "the patients RN". Doctors are more respected and regarded.

Also, you may be tempted so suggest treatments or courses of actions etc to your patients doctors, and if those doctors find out you went to medical school but now are an RN, I don't think they will respect you and will probably give you a hard time. Just some things to think about.

Good luck, I hope you don't give up.

Thanks for the reply. From what I've seen while observing the nurses at work, their job seems to be fast-paced and checklist-oriented. This seems to make the work hours appear shorter than usual. And the nurses I've met don't seem nearly as jaded as the residents, who are typically working 90+ hours per week.

I have to disagree with you about the "respected and regarded" part though. It seems like the nurses are the ones who are looked up to much more than physicians. The reasons are not reasonable though. For example, I've heard patients complaining that they only see their doctors for 10 minutes a day, but they get to see their nurses all day. They therefore rationalize that their doctors don't care about them - not knowing that their doctor spent 3 hours researching the best way to deal with their problem with the least amount of harm possible. Like I said, the difference in respect toward doctors are nurses are unreasonably skewed - I just think it's skewed more towards nurses.

[jackshepard]

Thanks again to everyone for taking the time to read and reply. I apologize for not being able to come back to the post more frequently.

To those who have seen Gattaca … I just realized how much my life resembles the main character's. I clean up after the medicine residents (and nurses, too, to an extent) while watching them go about their duties. There was a scene where the lead janitor tells the main character, when you clean the glass Vincent, don't clean it too well. You might get ideas.”

To start things off … thanks to those who have explained the residency application process. It's an absolutely brutal process that is draining in every way – financially, physically, mentally; kind of like medical school itself. You guys (and gals) have presented the facts as well as I could have. The process is costly. And it becomes more and more meaningless the longer I am from my graduation. KatieMI gave me some insight into the fact that some programs prefer foreign MD grads because the programs are shadier than others. I never thought of that before, but it makes a lot of sense.

As for the suggestions to go into other careers:

Going the PA route is an absolute negative. I have spoken to PA's who are involved in the admissions process. They told me that they regard MD's and med school dropouts applying to PA schools as second class citizens. One even told me that the admissions folks were extra harsh to a foreign MD grad applicant.

Going overseas to become a physician has been suggested to me in the past. It's true that US MD's are highly regarded in just about every other country. However, to become an actual physician would require that I take that country's exams. That means having to devote time to studying. And time is a commodity that I simply cannot waste – because I need to put food on the table, etc. Also, it's absolutely true that the longer an MD grad is removed from graduation, the more worthless the MD becomes. The only exception is if the MD grad has actually practiced medicine (such as when foreign MD's apply to US residency spots).

Using my MD to get into other career fields is not that simple anymore. With the global financial slow down, many places are reluctant to add on non-producing jobs. And with the rise of sue-first-talk-later, many places that were once willing to take on MD's without residency are hesitant to do so. And believe me – I've looked into all of this. To be a professor or a teacher would require more education (Masters / PhD level) and licensing. To be any kind of administrator in a hospital would require Attending status and / or an MBA (keep in mind that the hospital's ultimate goal is to make money). To be a research professional (not lab tech) would require a PhD – labs that are spending enormous amounts of money on talent would rather hire someone with an education that was focused on research vs medicine. To be a consultant” in Pharmaceuticals would require actual medical licensing. The last place that actually replied to one of my many online job app submissions told me they were looking for someone who has worked in Heme / Onc for at least 5 years. So they're essentially asking for someone who has done Internal Med residency, Heme / Onc fellowship, and worked as a Heme / Onc attending for 5 years, and be willing to take a $80k job. When I reminded the HR lady of that, she connected me to one of her higher-ups, who said that the best she could do was to offer me a 1 year unpaid internship” in the company. I turned that offer down as quickly as the first girl I asked out did to me way back in the day (I was an awkward, nerdy, overweight teenager). The jobs that are available – well, I feel way overqualified to do (including what I'm doing now). I have a friend who is a manager at a Walmart. He says I'm welcome there any time. I haven't taken him up on that yet, but the 10 % employee discount is pretty tempting.

The military has always been an option of mine. My generation was heavily involved in Iraq and Afghanistan. It sometimes pains me to think that I did not contribute to the country as much as many of the guys I grew up did. But as much as I want to enlist in the Marines, I am too old to do so (31 yo, though in the best shape of my life).

Recording and publishing lectures is a great idea. Unfortunately, I simply don't have the time or resources to devote to that. I know someone who does youtube videos. His 10 minute videos often take 4 hours or more from pre-production to getting uploaded. The work involved is far more arduous and time-consuming than the average person would be capable of handling. This is why I have no problem with youtube video producers accepting advertisements to help compensate some of their time.

The Missouri assistant physician” thing looks promising. Maybe it'll be worth holding out for that. But I have a bad feeling that it will not stay in motion due to the AMA's need for control. I'm also doing more research into direct to NP programs,” but that sounds less appealing due to the cost of education.

Meanwhile, I think you guys are right in that I need to see what nursing is really like. I will talk to my nursing friends to see if they can offer any help. Right now, I am eager to step into the medical world, so I could be seeing the daily nursing duties with rose-tinted glasses.

To the person who asked how I am doing both on this thread and through personal message:

Thank you so much for caring. It means a lot, especially when I don't really communicate with my family. The legal stuff involves them and not me. Well, it did involve me in that it cost me a great deal of time, energy, and money. And being with an unsupportive gf didn't help. I'm just glad we didn't bring a child into this world. I'd be a horrible father and role model.

I'm not sure about depression. I do have anhedonia, poor sleep, and feelings of guilt, but those are more likely secondary to circumstances. Negative on SI, HI, seeing things other people can't see, believing the TV is talking about me, or believing that I'm actually working for the FBI's spying-on-nurses division.

[AuDDoc]

Actually 31 as an officer is not old. The cut off is 38 for most branches for direct commissioned medical officers. You also wouldn't be joining the Marines, you would be joining the Navy and most likely attached to a Marine unit.

Like I said talk to a recruiter.

[A&Ox6, MSN, RN]

Thanks for the reply. From what I've seen while observing the nurses at work, their job seems to be fast-paced and checklist-oriented. This seems to make the work hours appear shorter than usual. And the nurses I've met don't seem nearly as jaded as the residents, who are typically working 90+ hours per week.

I have to disagree with you about the "respected and regarded" part though. It seems like the nurses are the ones who are looked up to much more than physicians. The reasons are not reasonable though. For example, I've heard patients complaining that they only see their doctors for 10 minutes a day, but they get to see their nurses all day. They therefore rationalize that their doctors don't care about them - not knowing that their doctor spent 3 hours researching the best way to deal with their problem with the least amount of harm possible. Like I said, the difference in respect toward doctors are nurses are unreasonably skewed - I just think it's skewed more towards nurses.

I realize that you are going through a difficult time , but I want to point out that based on what you wrote here it is apparent that you have a very limited understanding regarding the dynamics can of patient-nurse-physician-institution relationships. While nurses consistently rate as most trusted profession, the actual interactions that we have do not seem to correlate with this.

Some examples:

A nurse at my institution was reprimanded for "not charting in realtime" during a psych emergency that required physically restraining the client.

A nurse was suspended without pay because the patient didn't feel comfortable with a nurse who "looked tired" even though said nurse had been mandated to work overtime on her sixth consecutive twelve hour shift due to poor retention and staffing.

A physician who refuses to order PRN psych medications for a violent patient who has already attacked two members of nursing staff because the patient is med-seeking.

Hospital staff that doesn't support or discourages employees from pressing charges against patients and family members.

Based on your answers, it seems that you have a very unrealistic view of nursing and the life of nurses.

I wonder whether you could be more satisfied as a Science or Health teacher. As others mentioned, you can created study materials, although you should've careful about using the MD postnomial, and I would advise you to seek legal advice on this matter. As a CNA student, one of our instructors was a foreign educated nurse who was applying for licensure. She worked in the lab. I wonder whether a similar job can be found in medical assistant/phlebotomy/medical technology programs. Can you get an MPH/MHA or something like that? Can you work as a premed advisor?

Then again, you can always write a best -seller on how you picked yourself up after this and speak motivationally. Or if you really are not worried about loans, go to art school. (Jk)

[A&Ox6, MSN, RN]

Just wanted to add that you mention that the expense of further education to change careers is prohibitive. Are you aware that you will need at least 18 months of education (ABSN) for nursing, and that is assuming all of your prerequisites are up to date (usually within 5 years)? Also, these programs are not cheap. In fact, you could get an MHA online, while working full time in the same amount of time for the same or less cost. You would then be eligible for management positions which typically pay more.

[Lev, MSN, RN, NP]

I'm not sure about depression. I do have anhedonia, poor sleep, and feelings of guilt, but those are more likely secondary to circumstances. Negative on SI, HI, seeing things other people can't see, believing the TV is talking about me, or believing that I'm actually working for the FBI's spying-on-nurses division.

I think you are depressed and that is holding you back from moving on in your career. You want to "settle" with being an RN instead of doing everything possible to get into a residency. You keep giving excuses. Drag yourself to your PCP and/or make an appointment with a psychologist and/or psychiatrist and get help.