Mandatory flu shots????

allnurses Guide · Jan 24, 2014

My reasoning is solely due to the fact that after reading up on it, I am not convinced that it will do my body any good to take it. I not convinced that it actually prevents the flu, nor does it prevent me from spreading it to, or 'endangering' my patients.
There have been studies out there, but tell me, how does one predict, exactly, how effective it is? Let's look at this scenario. I think it is totally my right to make an informed decision on what I put in my body. My immune system does not need a flu shot putting it into hyperactive mode every year, so that over time it actually works less and less effectively.
I get that employers have a right to put policies in place for employees, but in regards to a flu shot, something that is not proven to be something that is even effective in doing what they say it does, I think is ridiculous. Vitamin D boosts a persons immune system, making them healthier, making them less likely to spread illnesses to their patients, but for some people maybe they are not convinced on this either, therefore don't take it daily. And that's ok! What would happen if they forced everyone to take Vit D, each day, or be fired from their job?
Or, what would happen of they made everyone be swabbed on a weekly basis for MRSA, or VRE, or be tested for AIDS, or quit smoking? Or be a certain weight, because when they are obese, they are less healthy, thus making it more likely to be sick spreading illness to their patients (or 'endangering' their patients). ....yes....touchy right? But like a flu shot, these are ALL personal health choices!! I really don't think a job should be dependant on personal health choices!!

I edited the quotes down to make my responses easier to follow.

1. You are not convinced by the multitude of research that the the flu vaccine doesn't work. You provide a point of view that has absolutely no verifiable proof to go with it, so I am not even sure where to start other than to list again some of the peer-reviewed scientific research showing the effectiveness of the flu vaccine. CDC - Flu Vaccine Effectiveness: Questions and Answers for Health Professionals | Health Professionals | Seasonal Influenza (Flu) The commentary is at the top and references per usual are at the bottom.

2. We are exposed to multiple bacteria and viruses everyday of our lives. A vaccine does not cause our immune systems to go into hyperactive mode. This is a common myth among vaccines.

"Can so many vaccines, given so early in life, overwhelm a child's immune system, suppressing it so it does not function correctly?

No evidence suggests that the recommended childhood vaccines can “overload” the immune system. In contrast, from the moment babies are born, they are exposed to numerous bacteria and viruses on a daily basis. Eating food introduces new bacteria into the body; numerous bacteria live in the mouth and nose; and an infant places his or her hands or other objects in his or her mouth hundreds of times every hour, exposing the immune system to still more antigens. When a child has a cold they are exposed to at least 4 to 10 antigens and exposure to “strep throat” is about 25 to 50 antigens." CDC - Multiple Vaccines - Vaccine Safety

3. Again the flu vaccine is proven to reduce the incidence and severity of influenza if you have other peer-reviewed scientific literature to offer a different point of view you should post it and not make unsubstantiated claims otherwise. Vitamin D supplementation for normal healthy adults probably has no additional health benefits.

"No significant effect was found for 1,25(OH)2D supplementation as an adjuvant to increase the efficacy of an influenza vaccine in the general adult population (90) or in HIV-positive (91) adults, and supplementation with oral cholecalciferol did not significantly reduce the risk of infection in an elderly population (92). General vitamin D supplementation (median daily dose of 2000 iu/d, or 50 μg/d) was not associated with improved serologic response to an influenza vaccine (measured by a ≥1:40 hemagglutinin antibody inhibition titer ratio or 4-fold increase in hemagglutinin antibody inhibition titer at 3-mo postvaccination) in prostate cancer patients ." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3649720/

http://www.health.harvard.edu/flu-resource-center/how-to-boost-your-immune-system.htm

There is big difference between taking a vitamin that will only effect a persons individual health and a receiving a vaccine that has been shown to not only protect oneself but also the population in general. There is no comparison between the two even the tenuous one that you are trying to make.

4. You are trying to compare things that can be controlled with hand washing, aseptic/sterile technique, and personal health problems with the flu which cannot be controlled by any one of these or by personal improved health habits.

allnurses Guide · Jan 24, 2014

We, as nurses, can't force patients to do things so they don't put themselves, others, or even us at risk, but we can be forced to take vaccines to protect them from risks? I don't believe this kind of double standard is acceptable, sorry. If a person is sick, I could see not allowing them to work, because they are a clear risk, but just because they don't get a vaccine? No, that's still forcing in my opinion. They don't enforce vaccines and handwashing for the doctors, so why do they pick on us nurses? They can't force us to eat healthy, or do anything we don't want to, even if it's good for ourselves and others, this isn't any different. We have rights as people, too.

It is not a double standard. Nurses are there to protect their patients. Patients are not there to protect the nurses. Health care workers can transmit the flu and other illnesses without ever showing signs or symptoms of being infected.

I have not seen any place that has made a influenza vaccine mandatory that does not make all their employees receive the flu vaccine. There maybe exceptions for credentialed providers that are not employees, but even that is going to be the unusual exception and not the norm.

Mandatory vaccination is completely different than eating healthy or exercising etc. One you are only basically hurting yourself by not maintaining a healthy lifestyle, but by not being vaccinated you are endangering the public, yourself, your family, co-workers, and patients. To think otherwise is contradictory to the current research and a myriad of expert opinions based on peer-reviewed scientific literature.

NBmomto2 · Jan 24, 2014

Still not convinced. But that's ok. It's my own personal choice. I am responsible for my personal health choices as you are for your own. And if anyone asks me what I think of the flu shot, I always them to research it for themselves, because I cannot make a decision for them, or their family. Nor will I tell you what to choose to do for your own personal health., nor should my employer tell me what to do for my personal health.

But...I guess that's the sad world where we live now. I truly LOVE my job and for someone to tell me that I do not care about my patients or that I am endangering them for a decision I am making for myself, I resent that. (Not saying that anyone here has said that, but I have had even co-workers imply that to me). I care deeply for my patients. My nursing career started when I was 36 years old and it was a tough journey to get to where I am now, in a job where i feel that I am making a difference in my patients and their family's lives each day. I go to work every day, truly excited for what the day has ahead for me. For my employer to put me in a position where I have to do something that I do not believe in, is very tough. For those of you who have taken the shot, imagine being in a position where you were forced to do something that you didn't believe in or you would lose the job you so desperately love! It's tough.

Right now, we can chose to wear a mask, but I do understand that eventually it will come to the point where I will have to decide to get the shot or lose my job.i guess I will have to make a choice at that point as to what to do. And to tell you the truth, I will probably just get the shot at that point, against all my thoughts and beliefs....not because I feel that it will protect my patients, but because I LOVE my job, and my patients, and what I do is a big part of who I am, and I would not want to give that up.

allnurses Guide · Jan 24, 2014

Still not convinced. But that's ok. It's my own personal choice. I am responsible for my personal health choices as you are for your own. And if anyone asks me what I think of the flu shot, I always them to research it for themselves, because I cannot make a decision for them, or their family. Nor will I tell you what to choose to do for your own personal health., nor should my employer tell me what to do for my personal health.
But...I guess that's the sad world where we live now. I truly LOVE my job and for someone to tell me that I do not care about my patients or that I am endangering them for a decision I am making for myself, I resent that. (Not saying that anyone here has said that, but I have had even co-workers imply that to me). I care deeply for my patients. My nursing career started when I was 36 years old and it was a tough journey to get to where I am now, in a job where i feel that I am making a difference in my patients and their family's lives each day. I go to work every day, truly excited for what the day has ahead for me. For my employer to put me in a position where I have to do something that I do not believe in, is very tough. For those of you who have taken the shot, imagine being in a position where you were forced to do something that you didn't believe in or you would lose the job you so desperately love! It's tough.
Right now, we can chose to wear a mask, but I do understand that eventually it will come to the point where I will have to decide to get the shot or lose my job.i guess I will have to make a choice at that point as to what to do. And to tell you the truth, I will probably just get the shot at that point, against all my thoughts and beliefs....not because I feel that it will protect my patients, but because I LOVE my job, and my patients, and what I do is a big part of who I am, and I would not want to give that up.

Pretty much every American ideal is freedom of choice in all things, but as healthcare professional our decisions that concern our jobs and patients should be based on evidenced-based research not personal feelings.

NBmomto2 · Jan 24, 2014

My feeling ARE based on evidence I have read. You read...to form opinions that become your personal opinion. Isn't that the way it works? Anyway, my discussion here is done. I will not convince you...which is not what I am trying to do anyway, nor will you convince me.

allnurses Guide · Jan 24, 2014

My feeling ARE based on evidence I have read. You read...to form opinions that become your personal opinion. Isn't that the way it works? Anyway, my discussion here is done. I will not convince you...which is not what I am trying to do anyway, nor will you convince me.

Then provide the evidence/research. There are NO peer-reviewed scientific research to support healthcare workers not getting the flu shot. You can keep saying you have seen evidence, but until you provide proof it is basically a fictional tale.

There are plenty of anti-vaccine propaganda pseudo-scientific papers out there, but they all have half-truths or outright lies in them that have been throughly debunked.

BlueLightRN · Jan 24, 2014

And even if I get the flu shot, it doesn't protect my patients. If a person with the flu sneezes and the germs are on my scrubs, I may be protected from the shot but the next patient I help may be exposed. Forcing the nurse to take a shot doesn't protect the patient. I am there to take care of the patients, but that doesn't negate the rights of a nurse to make their own health and medical decisions.

allnurses Guide · Jan 24, 2014

And even if I get the flu shot, it doesn't protect my patients. If a person with the flu sneezes and the germs are on my scrubs, I may be protected from the shot but the next patient I help may be exposed. Forcing the nurse to take a shot doesn't protect the patient. I am there to take care of the patients, but that doesn't negate the rights of a nurse to make their own health and medical decisions.

Yes, a HCW getting the flu shot does protect their patients. CDC - Influenza Vaccination Information for Health Care Workers | Seasonal Influenza (Flu) This is a proven fact that no personal rationalization is going to change. Without the flu vaccine you basically become a flu vector often initially unknowingly.

I would also hope that nurses would practice basic sanitary procedures too, if a patient sneezes on your clothing wipe it off with an antiseptic wipe. Clean your skin with soap and water. These simple acts are not going to change, but by decreasing a HCWs chance of getting the flu you aren't a walking vector able to spread the flu all around just by talking and breathing.

Depending on where you work employer mandated flu vaccines maybe required, and if so then your personal protests will not matter. You will either get the influenza vaccine or find other employment. The influenza vaccine is not a threat to your health despite what you keep inferring. It is actually just the opposite. The flu vaccine is the most effective protective measure against influenza that we currently have or likely to ever have. WHO | Vaccines

Frequently Asked Questions | Mandatory Flu Vaccination

A person's personal freedoms end when they jeopardize the publics health.

allnurses Guide · Jan 24, 2014

And even if I get the flu shot, it doesn't protect my patients. If a person with the flu sneezes and the germs are on my scrubs, I may be protected from the shot but the next patient I help may be exposed. Forcing the nurse to take a shot doesn't protect the patient. I am there to take care of the patients, but that doesn't negate the rights of a nurse to make their own health and medical decisions.

Yes, a HCW getting the flu shot does protect their patients. CDC - Influenza Vaccination Information for Health Care Workers | Seasonal Influenza (Flu) This is a proven fact that no personal rationalization is going to change. Without the flu vaccine you basically become a flu vector often initially unknowingly.

I would also hope that nurses would practice basic sanitary procedures too, if a patient sneezes on your clothing wipe it off with an antiseptic wipe. Clean your skin with soap and water. These simple acts are not going to change, but by decreasing a HCWs chance of getting the flu you aren't a walking vector able to spread the flu all around just by talking and breathing.

Depending on where you work employer mandated flu vaccines maybe required, and if so then your personal protests will not matter. You will either get the influenza vaccine or find other employment. The influenza vaccine is not a threat to your health despite what you keep inferring. It is actually just the opposite. The flu vaccine is the most effective protective measure against influenza that we currently have or likely to ever have. WHO | Vaccines

Frequently Asked Questions | Mandatory Flu Vaccination (this one is specific to John Hopkins but has some good general information too).

A person's personal freedoms end when they jeopardize the publics health.

Editorial Team / Admin · Jan 24, 2014

We, as nurses, can't force patients to do things so they don't put themselves, others, or even us at risk, but we can be forced to take vaccines to protect them from risks? I don't believe this kind of double standard is acceptable, sorry.

This is where a lot of people seem to get caught up- being a patient is not the same thing as being an employee. Patients are not governed by conditions of employment. However, employees are. Unless it involves illegal activities or discrimination against a protected class, conditions of employment are completely up to the discretion of the employer. One who feels strongly about required vaccinations is going to need to find an employer whose conditions are amenable to their beliefs. It is not the duty of the employer to change to meet the beliefs of the employees (again, with exceptions for illegal or discriminatory practices).

Also, no one is being forced to get vaccinated. One can still choose not to be vaccinated; one will simply need to be prepared to deal with the consequences of that choice.

pookyp, LPN · Jan 24, 2014

Also no one is being forced to get vaccinated. One can still choose not to be vaccinated; one will simply need to be prepared to deal with the consequences of that choice.[/quote']
Everyone uses this argument.
Yes it is being forced. Some people are living paycheck to paycheck, and to threaten someone with a job who probably needs it more than the next person... And to then so go elsewhere? Where probably 95% of health care facilities want you to have the shot?
Lol at all of this evidence based practice stuff posted. They make billions of dollars off of you guys getting the flu shot. Do you really think they're going to tell you it doesn't really work and all of the risks? Ha! It's kinda like being a lab rat every year hoping this strain works, and crossing your fingers and toes. You'd be better off taking a multivitamin a day. Lmao

allnurses Guide · Jan 25, 2014

Everyone uses this argument.
Yes it is being forced. Some people are living paycheck to paycheck, and to threaten someone with a job who probably needs it more than the next person... And to then so go elsewhere? Where probably 95% of health care facilities want you to have the shot?
Lol at all of this evidence based practice stuff posted. They make billions of dollars off of you guys getting the flu shot. Do you really think they're going to tell you it doesn't really work and all of the risks? Ha! It's kinda like being a lab rat every year hoping this strain works, and crossing your fingers and toes. You'd be better off taking a multivitamin a day. Lmao

When these mandatory flu vaccines programs come about they usually give the employees weeks to months head notice or the policies were already in place before the employee started working there. No one is being forced it is a condition of your employment just as keeping up your nursing license, following JC regulations, OSHA guidelines etc are.

Forced vaccination is what the military does where if you don't get the vaccine you can face court martial, fines, imprisonment etc. When civilian employers start doing that I will concede and say that flu vaccines are being forced.

Most vaccine post-marketing studies are published by the government/CDC/NIH etc and have no backing from the pharmaceutical companies.

There is no giant conspiracy theory that several million people would have to know about and be in on to make this even a partial truth. Like all anti-vaccine people you provide absolutely no scientific proof of your allegations, but you expect everyone to just nod and agree. Vaccines save millions a lives each year and save billions of dollars in healthcare costs.

I post the same challenge all the time and that is provide some kind of peer-reviewed scientific evidence to back up your claims. Otherwise you are just another conspiracy theorist spreading fictional tales.

"Myth #5: Flu vaccines provide billions of dollars in profits for pharmaceutical companies. (Maybe, maybe not, but so what?)

There is no question that pharmaceutical companies are for-profit companies and that they really rake in the billions. If they didn’t make a profit off vaccine, they wouldn’t manufacture them. However, the profits they earn from vaccines are a drop in the bucket when considered along with chronic condition medications such as blood pressure meds and mental health drugs, not to mention the cash flow from medications like Viagra.

But the recommendations for vaccines come from public health organizations such as the Centers for Disease Control and similar public health, government and academic institutions across the world. Unless you think all those countries’ governments and public health officials are involved in a huge conspiracy or money-making scheme with Big Pharma (and if you think that, read this), then the fact that vaccines offer a profit to pharma companies isn’t a reason not to get vaccinated. In fact, influenza itself is quite costly, costing the US about $4.6 billionannually in direct medical costs and as much as $87 billion annually in all costs." Setting the Record Straight: Debunking All the Flu Vaccine Myths