Mandated Flu vaccine?

Good Morning, Gil · Sep 27, 2011

Required or you're fired (some exceptions apply; allergic rxn or religious reasons, etc). I don't mind, though. I would get the vaccine even if it were optional.

wooh, BSN, RN · Sep 27, 2011

Also, I am amazed at the number of nurses who claim they got the flu from the vaccine. ... Did these people sleep through their classes on infection?

I'm amazed at the number of people who can't read. Did they sleep through 1st grade?

I rarely see people claim they got "the flu" from the vax. Generally, I see people that say, they got the flu anyway. Or they got the same symptoms. Or they got sick.

And then there's 10 responses, "You can't get the flu from the vaccination. It's a dead virus." (Which I remember in micro losing points if you ever said a virus was "dead" because they weren't ever alive to be dead, you can only attenuate viruses, not kill them.)

Horseshoe, BSN, RN · Sep 27, 2011

I'm amazed at the number of people who can't read. Did they sleep through 1st grade?
I rarely see people claim they got "the flu" from the vax. Generally, I see people that say, they got the flu anyway. Or they got the same symptoms. Or they got sick.
And then there's 10 responses, "You can't get the flu from the vaccination. It's a dead virus." (Which I remember in micro losing points if you ever said a virus was "dead" because they weren't ever alive to be dead, you can only attenuate viruses, not kill them.)

Nope, see it all the time. "I never got the flu until I got the vaccine." They don't say "I got the flu anyway, so why bother?" They are implying that the vaccine gave them the flu. Read any number of flu vaccine threads here and you see it over and over and over again. It's hardly a "rare" assertion.

Horseshoe, BSN, RN · Sep 27, 2011

I'm amazed at the number of people who can't read. Did they sleep through 1st grade?
I rarely see people claim they got "the flu" from the vax. Generally, I see people that say, they got the flu anyway. Or they got the same symptoms. Or they got sick.
And then there's 10 responses, "You can't get the flu from the vaccination. It's a dead virus." (Which I remember in micro losing points if you ever said a virus was "dead" because they weren't ever alive to be dead, you can only attenuate viruses, not kill them.)

Nope. You have "live" but "attenuated vaccines" (flu mist) and "inactivated" vaccines, which are frequently referred to as "dead" in the medical literature. The flu shot is not attenuated, it is "inactivated." Flu mist is "live" but "attenuated."

http://virology-online.com/general/typesofvaccines.htm

cherrybreeze, ADN, RN · Sep 27, 2011

i find it so interesting that people consider getting the flu shot to be a "patient safety issue." i can think of a lot more pressing issues than injecting yourself with a strain of flu that the other part of the world had six months before.

how is it not a patient safety issue? when someone is in the hospital, they are at a higher risk for getting influenza, for several reasons: a compromised immune system, close quarters/poor airflow, etc. as healthy people, two things are possible for us as employees: we either will be able to fight off the virus if exposed, or if we do become ill, it will be less severe and we are at less risk for complications. for the hospitalized patient, whose immune system is already taxed due to existing illness or recent surgery, they can't fight the bug off as well in the first place, and they are more likely to develop complications. the flu, and it's complications, can be life-threatening.

then start with handwashing. only half of the people in hospitals do it consistently and there is no reprimand for not doing it correctly. focusing on hand washing is cheaper and safer than flu vaccines, and it will probably get rid of the flu more efficiently.

influenza is an airborne illness. you can wash your hands all you want, but if that germ is in the air due to someone coughing or sneezing, your clean hands aren't going to mean a thing. that's one of the reasons it spreads so rapidly. handwashing may be cheaper, but it is not "safer" or more "efficient" in preventing the flu. as far as this statement: "and it will probably get rid of the flu more efficiently" ...how will handwashing get rid of the flu? once you have it, you are down for the count until it resolves itself. washing your hands when you are already ill will do nothing. if that's not what you meant....i am not sure what you meant, because again, the flu is airborne, so handwashing won't do much in preventing transmission.

i'm amazed at the number of people who can't read. did they sleep through 1st grade?
i rarely see people claim they got "the flu" from the vax. generally, i see people that say, they got the flu anyway. or they got the same symptoms. or they got sick.
and then there's 10 responses, "you can't get the flu from the vaccination. it's a dead virus." (which i remember in micro losing points if you ever said a virus was "dead" because they weren't ever alive to be dead, you can only attenuate viruses, not kill them.)

i hear it all the time...."i got the vaccine and then i got the flu." or some variation of that. not only here, mind you...you hear it everywhere. just today i was reading a post and comments on walgreen's facebook page. it was about them donating flu shots when people checked in there on foursquare, something like that. as usual, there are people that comment and post on it, turning it in to a platform to lay out all of the *evils* of the vaccine. this, of course, included "i only get the flu when i get the vaccine!" the implication of this is of course that the cause of the flu was the vacc. while these are laypeople, you do hear it from hcp's as well (someone here posted to me, that it was "quite a coincidence" *wink wink* that i got the flu after being vaccinated).

so, yes, i can read just fine, and i can also properly infer meaning from statements. imagine that.

MunoRN, RN · Sep 27, 2011

I'm amazed at the number of people who can't read. Did they sleep through 1st grade?
I rarely see people claim they got "the flu" from the vax. Generally, I see people that say, they got the flu anyway. Or they got the same symptoms. Or they got sick.
And then there's 10 responses, "You can't get the flu from the vaccination. It's a dead virus." (Which I remember in micro losing points if you ever said a virus was "dead" because they weren't ever alive to be dead, you can only attenuate viruses, not kill them.)

"Killed" virus is a misnomer since virus's don't meet the full definition of a living organism, even so, "killed" is the commonly used term for inactivated vaccines. Most flu vaccines are inactivated, not attenuated. In some instances, "live" attenuated vaccines are preferable. While these viruses are not technically "alive" they are still active as opposed to inactivated vaccines which are "killed" with heat or formaldehyde, essentially consisting of the "corpses" of viruses as a way of showing your immune system a potential attacker so that it can prepare itself. Even though "live" attenuated viruses are still active, they are altered so they are not virulent.

Some people claim the vaccine wasn't effective and they got the flu, although in reading these types of threads and similar arguments on the internet, the claim that people often become infected with the flu as a result of the vaccine seems to be much more common.

msn10 · Sep 27, 2011

As far as this statement: "and it will probably get rid of the flu more efficiently" ...how will handwashing get RID of the flu? Once you have it, you are down for the count until it resolves itself.

I am talking about preventing transmission in the first place

Influenza is an airborne illness. You can wash your hands all you want, but if that germ is in the air due to someone coughing or sneezing, your clean hands aren't going to mean a thing.

The flu virus can live on surfaces for up to 48 hours after leaving the body. From the Mayo website:

The rapid spread of some colds and types of flu certainly suggests that indirect transmission is common. You might, for example, catch the flu or a cold from rubbing your nose after handling an object an infected person christened with a sneeze a few moments ago. That said, it's important to note that cold and flu viruses primarily spread when an uninfected person has direct contact — a handshake, for example — with an infected person.
The best way to avoid becoming infected with a cold or flu is to wash your hands frequently with soap and water or with an alcohol-based sanitizer. Also, try to notice and stop yourself when you're about to rub your eyes or bite your nails. And get a seasonal flu vaccine every year

So getting the vaccine is not the only answer since it is only proven to prevent approx 50-70% of cases.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0005079

I will wear a mask and gloves all the time. Probably better for me too.

cherrybreeze, ADN, RN · Sep 27, 2011

So getting the vaccine is not the only answer since it is only proven to prevent approx 50-70% of cases.

I don't think anyone ever said that getting the vaccine is the only answer.....

msn10 · Sep 27, 2011

I don't think anyone ever said that getting the vaccine is the only answer.....

Fine take out the word 'only' from my post. Still, I don't think that people can tell me what to do with my own body. I don't think that anyone can assure me or others that vaccines are safe and will have no side effects later on. I also think that as an educated health care professional, I can make my own decisions regarding my own body. Not saying I am against wearing a mask. But then EVERYONE entering the building should have to wear one.

MunoRN, RN · Sep 27, 2011

I am talking about preventing transmission in the first place
The flu virus can live on surfaces for up to 48 hours after leaving the body. From the Mayo website:
So getting the vaccine is not the only answer since it is only proven to prevent approx 50-70% of cases.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0005079
I will wear a mask and gloves all the time. Probably better for me too.

In the US, it's actually 70-90% in working age adults.

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/vaccination/effectivenessqa.htm

cherrybreeze, ADN, RN · Sep 27, 2011

Fine take out the word 'only' from my post. Still, I don't think that people can tell me what to do with my own body. I don't think that anyone can assure me or others that vaccines are safe and will have no side effects later on. I also think that as an educated health care professional, I can make my own decisions regarding my own body. Not saying I am against wearing a mask. But then EVERYONE entering the building should have to wear one.

You really think in absolutes, don't you?

No one also ever said that there are NO side effects. As far as if they're safe....well, if you choose not to believe that in the face of proof, that is your decision. If vaccines weren't safe, they wouldn't be allowed to be given at all. But again, you have the right to ignore it.

I know for me, and I say it since you've quoted me...I never said it should be mandatory to be vaccinated. I do believe that people should have the choice if they want to be or not (I don't think anyone came out and said it *should* be, either, they've just stated their facilities' policies).

I don't see the logic in making EVERYONE wear a mask, though. If someone has been vaccinated, it isn't necessary. If wearing a mask is the alternative to the vaccine, then those who choose to not be vaccinated have to wear one. Why would everyone have to?

wooh, BSN, RN · Sep 27, 2011

I don't see the logic in making EVERYONE wear a mask, though. If someone has been vaccinated, it isn't necessary. If wearing a mask is the alternative to the vaccine, then those who choose to not be vaccinated have to wear one. Why would everyone have to?

So it's ok if a immunocompromised patient gets flu x, y, or z from you when the vaccine only covered flu a, b, and c? If we're putting the patients first, then we need to avoid giving them all the things that the flu vax doesn't protect against. If you're ever around babies, RSV will kill them just as quick as the flu, so until Synagis is available to the masses, we should be masking.

Everyone on my unit got sick last winter, except for me. Not because the flu shot "gave them the flu." (And I still consider someone saying, "I got the flu after getting the shot" as not saying they got the flu from getting the vax, but if it makes you feel smart to say, "You can't get the flu from the shot!" go right ahead.) But I didn't catch or spread any of the crap that was going around that's not covered by the flu vax.

Yet *I* am the one that doesn't care about my patients. I say if you aren't willing to wear a mask all winter long, it's YOU that doesn't care about the patients.