Letting CNA pass your meds, bad idea?

txspadequeenRN, BSN, RN · Oct 25, 2006

From the beginning I have been more and more confused by your post. In one post you are all for giving a CNA the meds to give if you are behind . Because anyone can pass a pill right.... Then later in your other post you say you would never do that because you dont want to put your license on the line. Now Im looking at this post and see where you "have got in trouble for not documenting but never for not documenting whether or not I really did the job". Documenting means you did the job. So if you dont document then you didnt do it (the job). There is to much gray area here and I see only black and white.

I guess that is the difference in me and you. I would never be tempted to ask anyone to help me that was not considered qualified. I would have done and have done exactly what the other nurse did. Someone has to work in the nursing home. So I do the best I can. Document whether it happened or not since that is the most important thing. Ridiculous I know but not my doing. Since I have gotten in trouble for not documenting but never for documenting whether or not I really did the job----I think it is pretty obvious what has to be done.

1husband · Oct 25, 2006

It's your butt on the line, I would rather chart not given than pass it on to a CNA.

goingnuts · Oct 25, 2006

From the beginning I have been more and more confused by your post. In one post you are all for giving a CNA the meds to give if you are behind . Because anyone can pass a pill right.... Then later in your other post you say you would never do that because you dont want to put your license on the line. Now Im looking at this post and see where you "have got in trouble for not documenting but never for not documenting whether or not I really did the job". Documenting means you did the job. So if you dont document then you didnt do it (the job). There is to much gray area here and I see only black and white.

Nope you never saw where I said anything about giving a med to a CNA. Better go back and look again. I have said all along I wouldn't do that no matter what. What is so difficult to understand? I think I made myself quite clear. Documenting don't mean ****. But hey you have just reinforced what I said very plainly. By your way of thinking as long as I document I did it then I did it----Right. Wrong. You can't be serious.

pagandeva2000, LPN · Oct 25, 2006

I have been following this thread since the beginning and as anyone else noticed that when you respond to a quote that it is all wrong when you save and post it. Like I responeded to a post by pagandeva2000 but when it posted it says it is quoted by lmaldo....

This is confusing me as well...the quotes that are stated are by Imaldo are mine...what is happening here?

Marie_LPN, RN, LPN, RN · Oct 25, 2006

This is confusing me as well...the quotes that are stated are by Imaldo are mine...what is happening here?

Sometimes the quote tags 'follow' replies.

pagandeva2000, LPN · Oct 25, 2006

This is the main reason that a nurse has no buisness working for agency unless they are experienced in the area in which they are working in.
It is hard to say, because in many cases, new graduates may apply at agencies if they had a hard time searching for employment. I was fortunate in the case that my hospital paid my way through LPN school by allowing me to have a paid leave of absence, and paid my tuition. They had to hire me to fulfill the contract and I have to remain there for two years. Not a bad deal, but there are many nurses that graduate and (shocking to me), are not able to find employment because the curent requirement in their geographical areas are demanding for experienced nurses. Actually, this would have been a difficult assignment for a seasoned person if there are no ID bands or photographs to identify the clients, and this facility is in direct violation by not protecting the patients that cannot advocate for themselves. In my opinion, this facility places nurses in a situation where they have to deviate from being a patient advocate to protecting what they worked hard for. I suspect that while this nurse is new, this is clearly not the first time this has happened. I know I would have never went back there.:angryfire :angryfire

txspadequeenRN, BSN, RN · Oct 26, 2006

First let me address this junk about documentation. Are you serious ????? Documentation is the only way you can prove you did your job/task..whatever. If you did do it, but didnt document it and it becomes a did you do it or not issue then your just SOL huh... My point here is if you didnt document it then it was not done. Is there something Im missing here , this is nursing 101. This other mess , I went back and re-read your post. You are right and you did not mention you personally giving a CNA meds to give. However, I did not accuse you of that . I made the comment that you seemed like you were all for it if you were behind . Now, I see by re-reading your post that you think it is just as simple as reading the MAR and that you would not be concerned with the training of the CNA but that you just dont want to be reported. You have admitted to not taking BP's with meds and doing assessments before you give meds. In other words you are not concerned about the patient just covering your orifice and getting by anyway you can , doing the min.

Nope you never saw where I said anything about giving a med to a CNA. Better go back and look again. I have said all along I wouldn't do that no matter what. What is so difficult to understand? I think I made myself quite clear. Documenting don't mean ****. But hey you have just reinforced what I said very plainly. By your way of thinking as long as I document I did it then I did it----Right. Wrong. You can't be serious.

txspadequeenRN, BSN, RN · Oct 26, 2006

Please tell me that you are joking or you just were asleep when you wrote this. I shouldnt have to explain this one to you...it is common sense. If you cant handle a manual BP cuff (cause you know if you want the good cuffs you have to bring them yourself) then you shouldnt be passing meds that require a BP.

ANd no I don't take a blood pressure everytime I give clonidine. Do you think the equipment in the nursing home is accurate? It is not.]

Otessa, BSN, RN · Oct 26, 2006

You could probably lose your license if you were ever caught doing that. They are practicing as a nurse without a license(and you are assisting in that).

VERY bad idea!!!

Balder_LPN, LPN · Oct 26, 2006

I thought this whole conversation has been around and around and around and around this board. Here is an article on what our sate BON says. http://www.wsna.org/snas/wa/practice/update.asp?id=14

WA State Nurses Association WSNA (not the BON) position statement

"WSNA Supports that:

a. Medication administration to patients in all settings is a critical task that involves

adequate education and training, clinical oversight and consistent evaluation of

outcomes.

b. Medication administration in acute care and other settings with patients having

complex and unpredictable conditions should be limited to licensed nurses, RN and

LPN’s.

c. The RN may delegate medication administration to unlicensed assistive personnel

(UAP) In settings having patients with stable and predictable conditions."

But one of the best points was made by one of the mods (srry don't remember who) here who said that this is just one of many changes that are likely coming and sooner or later the changes will be (mostly) embraced, maybe not w/o modifications

daisey_may · Oct 26, 2006

This seems to be a common topic on here. I think that it's true that eventually things will change and CNAs may pass meds. Do I think it's right? No. I don't think that it's going to happen soon, but I don't think that giving medications will get a whole more 'strict'. Eventually, some sort of system will be in place that will 'check' what is given and people will feel...well safe, you know, that feeling we're not supposed to have. This might mean that the nurse will have even more responsibility having to check a CNA and themself.

What is the difference between a CNA and a nurse? Education obviously. But procedures, assessments, medications and documentation, right? If CNAs start giving medications and do know the interactions and so on and so forth, I think the roles will start to gray. I mean, I could be wrong. I could be very wrong.

I think this shouldn't be an issue NOW, I don't think CNAs should pass medication because there's a lot of liability in it for nurses. But what if CNAs do have that responsibility? What other responsibilities are they going to have, too?

goingnuts · Oct 26, 2006

Please tell me that you are joking or you just were asleep when you wrote this. I shouldnt have to explain this one to you...it is common sense. If you cant handle a manual BP cuff (cause you know if you want the good cuffs you have to bring them yourself) then you shouldnt be passing meds that require a BP.
ANd no I don't take a blood pressure everytime I give clonidine. Do you think the equipment in the nursing home is accurate? It is not.]
My goodness where on earth do I say I couldn't handel a Blood Pressure cuff? I plainly stated that the equipment in the nursing home is no good. Geez. And yes I meant what I said about doing assessments and all of that. Never had any problem tho. Maybe I was just lucky or maybe I have learned how to look at residents and know if anything is wrong. Sorry got to give the meds out whether they require BP or not.