Is this insubordination? How do I deal with this PSW?

Nurses General Nursing

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I need advice on how to deal with a certain PSWs behavior. I've been following the advice of my director and the behavior is improving but it's not stopping. I'm also not sure if the following situations count as insubordination or just disrespectful behavior that I'm not handling properly. Some background:

I am an RN and I am in charge of my shift at an extended care facility. One PSW (has never attended nursing school, only a 1 year college program for PSW certificate) has been very difficult since I started. She will question and verbally pick apart nursing assessments, interventions, and processes. She will also question doctor's orders (example, asking why a resident is suddenly on oxygen via NC and we'll say that the doctor ordered it as the resident has a low O2 sat related to a current pneumonia. She'll say that the doctor is wrong, and the person "is obviously asthmatic and needs a "blue or orange puffer", not oxygen". We'll tell her that no, the x-ray and radiologist report confirmed pneumonia, and nurse's/respiratory therapist/doctor's assessments are correct and the resident needs oxygen).

She'll also question every little thing you do. Many times a shift, I find myself saying to her, "You don't need to know how I calculated and drew up the morphine dose/inserted a SUBQ butterfly/debrided a wound/flushed a chest port because you will not be doing any of those tasks." She usually follows my response with, "I was only asking because I was curious and I wanted to be sure you were doing it right" or, "I do so need to know how you did that so I can train on it, do it, and tell you if you did it right." I tell her that the task was completed correctly, that it is never her job to be doing such tasks, and that training or not, she is not qualified to carry out the task or evaluate nurses on the task. I tell she has been told this many times, by myself, other nurses, and the director, and that she has been asked to stop questioning things unnecessarily. She then claims I am bullying or harassing her and puts in a complaint to HR (which is not found to be harassment or bullying).

The director has talked with her about her comments and behavior and asked her to stop. The PSW is improving slightly by not questioning quite as much, but it's still happening multiple times each shift and I'm getting tired of reminding her to stay within her scope and remember her role.

Questions remains:

Would the previous scenarios (questioning doctor's orders, questioning my competency or saying "I do so need to know how you did that so I can train on it and tell you if you did it right") count as insubordination? What would you call those scenarios if they aren't insubordination?

How do I identify insubordination and how do I handle it? I always thought it was refusing to do a task, not questioning your superiors.

How should I handle her questions/comments?

Should I be reporting every incidence of her comments/disrespectful behavior? I feel like this is overkill and tattling. My director has said to just ask her to stop questioning things and to keep reiterating that the task is correctly completed, it is beyond the PSWs scope to do such a task, and that the PSW is not qualified to do or evaluate such a task.

What else should I be doing?

6 hours ago, beachynurse said:

Wow, I'm going to completely disagree with you here. I don't see the RN as having the ege, I see the PSW having an ego. It appears that she feels that with her minimal amount of training that she feels that she knows as much as the nurses. This can be very dangerous. I don't feel the nurse is being rude at all, I feel the PSW is being rude by questioning the ability of a person with qualifications that she is nowhere close to having. It would be one thing if another nurse was questioning another nurse, but, a subordinate questioning a superior, no way.... You are way off base.

Thanks for your post! I was concerned that maybe I had an ego and had completely misread the situation because of that. I'm glad to hear that it's not me with the ego! Whew!

I agree, it is dangerous that this PSW, who does not have the training or qualifications to do nursing tasks, keeps questioning my nursing abilities. She lulls herself into a false sense of security if she continues on, and I'm afraid that this is the beginning of a slippery slope.

12 hours ago, CharleeFoxtrot said:

This would be my concern with one additional thought, What if she does a procedure that is harmful and out of her scope while you are her direct supervisor? That puts you on the firing line as well as being potentially liable should the incident become a lawsuit.

Oh good gracious. What a horrific "what if" situation! If it were a procedure that required her to gain access to a locked cart or locked room, which can only be done by nurses who have a set of keys AND a code (which is only ever given to nurses verbally as part of our training) then I believe that I would be responsible. For this PSW to gain access, she would have had to acquire keys from a nurse, such as myself, and a code to access that room from someone on the nursing staff. In that situation, I think it would be understandable that I would be terminated, or at the very least severely disciplined, for being negligent of my duties to safeguard the keys and codes, and for not making sure that the locked rooms, medication carts, dressing carts, and other nursing access only items are secure. My hypothetical negligence in that situation puts my licence at risk.

I highly doubt that this PSW would gain access to the supplies and medications. We are always very careful with our keys and codes and carts are never unlocked unless a nurse is actively accessing something from the cart.

While I do watch this PSW like a hawk, it is impossible to watch her every move. I'm hopeful that my constant reports to my director will help in some way to show that there is a desire to do these tasks, but I keep refusing and reiterating that she is not qualified. They would certainly build a case for this PSW's desire to practice nursing without a licence, and they record my refusal to train her on nursing tasks.

Your post makes an excellent point that I must bring up with my director: If this PSW independently and without direction decides to do a procedure she is not qualified to do during my shift, am I liable for it because I am her direct supervisor? This needs to be clear, and I think that since this PSW has shown a desire to perform nursing tasks, she is a potential risk to our patients. The only thing that's stopping her right now is that she asks to be trained to do something. What if that stops, and she goes ahead and does it?

Specializes in Psychiatry, Community, Nurse Manager, hospice.

Wow, what an unusual person.

I think you can handle this.

When she inappropriately evaluates you or another nurse, swiftly interrupt her (midsentence is fine) and assign her a task. The more menial, the better, just make sure it's not completely outside her duties. "Jane, go empty the trash cans in the nursing station." If she refuses, write her up for insubordination.

When she asks you to teach her a skill outside her scope respond "No." Then tell her to go empty the trash cans at the nursing station. If she refuses, write her up for insubordination.

Repeat as necessary.

Do not entertain her questions, give explanations, just consistently say no and then tell her what to do.

She may quit.

I'm wondering if you shouldn't suggest she go back to school to become a nurse since she has an interest in learning all the proper procedures. I used to think I knew a lot medically before I actually went to nursing school and found out the breadth and depth of my ignorance. Plus then she can be pestering her instructors all the time instead of you! ?

13 hours ago, JollyBug92 said:

If this PSW independently and without direction decides to do a procedure she is not qualified to do during my shift, am I liable for it because I am her direct supervisor? This needs to be clear, and I think that since this PSW has shown a desire to perform nursing tasks, she is a potential risk to our patients. The only thing that's stopping her right now is that she asks to be trained to do something. What if that stops, and she goes ahead and does it?

I'm not sure about where you are, but I think this is a little alarmist. I am responsible for seeing to it that appropriate care is given on my shift, for example I am liable if a CNA doesn't feed or change or reposition patients because it's then seen I have failed to supervise adequately. But if a support worker does something outside of their realm and I am on record as telling them repeatedly to stick to their realm, I am not legally liable. However, I live in an employment at will state, so I could be fired for anything. Two different issues. I would be no more legally responsible than if, say, an aide assaulted a patient.

On the other hand, if management had been repeatedly advised this support worker was attempting to take on the nurse's role and keeps her on and something happened, I think there would be liability to them. That's my take as a legal nurse consultant, not a lawyer.

9 hours ago, BookishBelle said:

I'm wondering if you shouldn't suggest she go back to school to become a nurse since she has an interest in learning all the proper procedures. I used to think I knew a lot medically before I actually went to nursing school and found out the breadth and depth of my ignorance. Plus then she can be pestering her instructors all the time instead of you! ?

I asked this PSW a few times why she didn't pursue nursing school and she's told me that she didn't want to be in school for that long. I reminded her that all those years of schooling are important, but she doesn't seem to think so. I wish she would just go to school because she is a great PSW, and I think her eagerness to learn would serve her well.

I always had an interest in all things medical. That's why I went into nursing!

7 hours ago, Katillac said:

I'm not sure about where you are, but I think this is a little alarmist. I am responsible for seeing to it that appropriate care is given on my shift, for example I am liable if a CNA doesn't feed or change or reposition patients because it's then seen I have failed to supervise adequately. But if a support worker does something outside of their realm and I am on record as telling them repeatedly to stick to their realm, I am not legally liable. However, I live in an employment at will state, so I could be fired for anything. Two different issues. I would be no more legally responsible than if, say, an aide assaulted a patient.

On the other hand, if management had been repeatedly advised this support worker was attempting to take on the nurse's role and keeps her on and something happened, I think there would be liability to them. That's my take as a legal nurse consultant, not a lawyer.

Thank you so much for this response. I thought that documentation would save my butt from legal liability in cases where this PSW went against my, and my supervisors, directions. Thank you for clearing that up.

Specializes in Urgent Care, Oncology.
43 minutes ago, JollyBug92 said:

I asked this PSW a few times why she didn't pursue nursing school and she's told me that she didn't want to be in school for that long. I reminded her that all those years of schooling are important, but she doesn't seem to think so. I wish she would just go to school because she is a great PSW, and I think her eagerness to learn would serve her well.

I always had an interest in all things medical. That's why I went into nursing!

There are a lot of people out there that think nurses are just task workers or worker bees who just carry out doctor's orders. Therefore, they think they could just be a nurse, minus the schooling. This line of thinking is very outdated as the roles of LPNs, RNs, and APRNs has evolved greatly over the years. Many people do not understand what nurses had to achieve on an educational level in order to practice.

1 hour ago, DowntheRiver said:

There are a lot of people out there that think nurses are just task workers or worker bees who just carry out doctor's orders. Therefore, they think they could just be a nurse, minus the schooling. This line of thinking is very outdated as the roles of LPNs, RNs, and APRNs has evolved greatly over the years. Many people do not understand what nurses had to achieve on an educational level in order to practice.

You hit the nail on the head with this one! While at one point nurses could potentially be trained "on the job", it is no longer that way at all. That's not to say that nurses don't learn a lot on the job, but to even get to the point where we can learn on the job, we have to go through education requirements first.

Specializes in Stroke Care - Med/Surg.
On 2/7/2019 at 4:31 PM, JollyBug92 said:

I really have no idea where she finds the time. She is a great worker, but this means she is also too efficient and then finds pockets of time to question us nurses. She's still doing her job safely, she's just trying to get involved with the nursing side of things which is highly inappropriate.

Agree with (nearly) everyone else. I'm a CNA and taking pre-reqs for nursing school. I've sometimes asked the RNs or NPs I've worked with about a procedure or decision. BUT I always come at it with the attitude of "I'm just interested to learn" and I have no intention of trying to practice nursing or pick apart a practitioner's decisions in my current role. You're not being egotistical; you are protecting your patients from an arrogant and uneducated non-nurse.

To echo others, I would document *everything* and if HR/your director continue to be unresponsive, I'd ask for a sit-down meeting. In the meantime, put up a wall: tell her "it's not my job to explain that to you"/ "I need to deal with this other patient right now" / "you are not an RN so you cannot perform that task." Be a broken record. Good luck and I hope that management backs you up.

9 minutes ago, hgarcia4 said:

Agree with (nearly) everyone else. I'm a CNA and taking pre-reqs for nursing school. I've sometimes asked the RNs or NPs I've worked with about a procedure or decision. BUT I always come at it with the attitude of "I'm just interested to learn" and I have no intention of trying to practice nursing or pick apart a practitioner's decisions in my current role. You're not being egotistical; you are protecting your patients from an arrogant and uneducated non-nurse.

To echo others, I would document *everything* and if HR/your director continue to be unresponsive, I'd ask for a sit-down meeting. In the meantime, put up a wall: tell her "it's not my job to explain that to you"/ "I need to deal with this other patient right now" / "you are not an RN so you cannot perform that task." Be a broken record. Good luck and I hope that management backs you up.

Thank you! I was hoping some PSWs and CNAs might be able to chime in.

Thanks for the input and good luck with your pre-requisites and eventual nursing school. It's tough, but very worth it!

Specializes in Stroke Care - Med/Surg.
11 minutes ago, JollyBug92 said:

Thank you! I was hoping some PSWs and CNAs might be able to chime in.

Thanks for the input and good luck with your pre-requisites and eventual nursing school. It's tough, but very worth it!

Thanks! I just got into my first school and I'm so excited!

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